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[Sheb]

Okay, but that doesn't mean Islam is the problem, just as whiteness is not a problem.

I'm no more of a fan of Islamists than you are, and I don't deny they exist. It's just that I'm conscious that they are a minority and that holding them as representative of Islam at large is dumb.

[PanH]

And I'll come outright and say Islamism is a terrible thing. Islamists, Fascists, Klanners, all of them are cut from the same cloth.

Now I am interested in hearing what your definition of Islam is. See I was under the impression it was the collective for various Muslim faiths and similar beliefs, comparable to Judaism.

Islamism != islam, as well as islamists != muslims
It's somewhat of a neologism, but basically, it's the belief that Islam should be the religion. Stuff like implementation of State Shariah, removal of non-muslim influence. So, that Islam should be used as a reference in all situations.
It's kinda the extremism of islam.

[Descan]

I'm not here to "win" some argument. It can't be done in this environment. The people here believe unflinchingly the way that they do.

I love how whenever someone is losing an argument on this forum, they jump to "It's impossible to convince you people since you're all so close-minded, so I'm not and never was trying. I was just shouting into the void because reasons! Shut up!"

[Sheb]

Yup, we just tend to like facts and arguments to vague references. You didn't cite any sources, and avoided counter-arguments (like the examples of Christian violence). Hardly surprising you're not convincing anyone.

[Loud Whispers]

Okay, but that doesn't mean Islam is the problem, just as whiteness is not a problem.

I'm no more of a fan of Islamists than you are, and I don't deny they exist. It's just that I'm conscious that they are a minority and that holding them as representative of Islam at large is dumb.

I'm not saying Islam is the problem, I'm saying the ease in which it allows supremacist groups to fester and grow is a problem. Moderate Muslims are almost indistinguishable from Christians, except they don't drink! And of course, hating them with the fervour of the EDL is a gross injustice, as is hating them at all, least of not for crimes they have not committed. But we are talking about the culture of Islam, and that is one that is fervently nationalistic, where non-Muslims are not permitted to so much as step on Mecca and so on. It is an example of everything that should be opposed, and it is rather strange why people defend it. Well intentioned ignorance? Or perhaps because they equate attacking fundamental Islam to attacking Muslims.
Minorities also, do not become suddenly immune to criticism much in the same way that racial supremacists are not immune from criticism, purely because they are a minority of their group.
[And even on that faulty logic, in cities like London, Muslims aren't even a minority, being the second largest religious group by a clear margin].

I'm not here to "win" some argument. It can't be done in this environment. The people here believe unflinchingly the way that they do.

I love how whenever someone is losing an argument on this forum, they jump to "It's impossible to convince you people since you're all so close-minded, so I'm not and never was trying. I was just shouting into the void because reasons! Shut up!"

Well I guess the difference is not in that Hár was losing the argument, it is just that Hár was not arguing to begin with. It appears Hár was looking for support, not differing opinions and debate.

[Sheb]

I'm not convinced it allows supremacist groups to fester more easily than other cultures in the same situation. See for example how supremacists white and blacks and Latinos gang form in US prisons. Hard situations breed hard groups.

But again, if your point is that Islamism is bad and should be opposed, I think we all agree on that. We never defended it, and we only started wen Hàr was attacking Islam itself rather than Islamism.

[Loud Whispers]

I'm not convinced it allows supremacist groups to fester more easily than other cultures in the same situation. See for example how supremacists white and blacks and Latinos gang form in US prisons. Hard situations breed hard groups.

Except this is happening in places like Sweden which is as close to a socialist paradise as we're going to get as well as Muslim countries in which they are the overwhelming dominant voice. This is very much a specific type of culture, different from that of prison culture.

But again, if your point is that Islamism is bad and should be opposed, I think we all agree on that. We never defended it, and we only started wen Hàr was attacking Islam itself rather than Islamism.

I'd disagree with the 'never defend' part, you were offering an opposing view and that is a rather good way of ensuring this doesn't devolve into a hugbox. Hàr, not quite sure what Hàr exactly wanted to get out of this thread. But please ignore him until he starts being reasonable and wishes to discuss with realities.

[GlyphGryph]

And I'll come outright and say Islamism is a terrible thing. Islamists, Fascists, Klanners, all of them are cut from the same cloth.

Now I am interested in hearing what your definition of Islam is. See I was under the impression it was the collective for various Muslim faiths and similar beliefs, comparable to Judaism.

Islam != Islamism

Note the "-ism". Islamism is a NOT Islam. They are the ones who want to turn the whole world Islamic by force if needed, or who at the very least want to kick all the non-muslims out of their country. They push for Islam being the guiding force in all political, social, and international dealings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

Islamists, of course, consider themselves the only TRUE Muslims, and deny that militant or political Islam is even a "thing", but all the other Muslims, unsurprisingly, heavily disagree with that.

[Sheb]

You're comparing apples and oranges here. The riots in Sweden seems to follow the classic riot story: people feel disenfranchised, social tensions grow and then the police do something stupid and it act as a detonator. It happened in France, it happened in England, it happened in Los Angeles and I supposed it can happens in any place where you have "ghettos". I don't even see the link with Islam.

In muslims countries, the demise of Arab nationalism  and the secular dictatorship gave rise to a conservative, political brand of Islam.

then you've got the Jihadist movement, that rose of the more extreme element of Islam and was fed by Afghanistan, Tchetchenia, Afghanistan again, Iraq and now Syria.

Situation create the groups. Back during the Troubles, you had a lot of Catholic terrorists. You don't see them much nowadays. If we managed to create a stable, democratic Middle-East, I bet most form of Islamic terrorism would disappears too, as well as the most despicable Islamist movements (I'm not speaking about parties like the Turkish AKP here).

Of course, I have no idea how to create a democratic Middle East.

[Descan]

United Arab State, maybe? o-o

[Sheb]

They tried already, but it didn't work out. although a large part of that was due to Nasser's refusal to let power go.

[DWC]

Islamic Fundamentalism is the norm in many parts of the middle east and developing world, not the exception. The basic philosophies of this interpretation of Islam runs quite contrary to western values of egalitarianism and personal freedom. While the use of violence in the name of religion isn't exactly always condoned among fundamentalists, the sentiment and the drastically different value system is still there.

So in that regard I have to wonder why these European governments with a multicultural agenda are importing people from these countries where the majority are Islamic Fundamentalists. Or why leftists seem convinced their belief system is not any less compatible then with other religions. So you have these immigrants moving into ethnic enclaves, the whole thing seems a lot like colonialism to me.

[GlyphGryph]

Are European countries actually "importing people"? I would imagine people trying to get OUT of those countries and into a Western one would be... well... exactly the sort of people we'd want to allow in, in general?

Immigrants from terribly oppressive and often fundamentalist countries make up the bulk of US ancestry, so I'm not quite so sure I agree with you're seeming belief that people from those countries shouldn't be allowed to emigrate aboard.

The expatriate and ghetto-ization problem is something a bit different, and I do agree that "enclaves" are a bit of an issue, but history generally indicates that in a welcoming climate these usually don't end up holding as distinct entities. You won't see many Irish enclaves in Boston, despite them being a much hated minority from a "terrible" country that everyone wanted to stop from being able to immigrate into the US and who at least initially where often confined to ghettoes, because that sort of continued isolation is actually /hard/.

[Descan]

Yeah, I was about to say? The kind of people LEAVING a country are the LAST people I expect to support it's government.

[Descan]

I'll grant that. Not sayin' that people who leave will NEVER support them, but just that it's unlikelier than someone staying.