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Author Topic: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?  (Read 19114 times)

Sheb

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2013, 05:19:56 am »

As anyone that has ever been an exchange student will ever tell you, the subject of differences between cultures is country is an infinitely fun stuff to discuss. I'm in a Facebook group for AFS student (an exchange organization), and we have a thousands-posts long discussion about "What shocked you most when you get in another country?"

Differences need not be barrier, and if you put a group of willing people together (as opposed to two groups side by side where they need not interact much), they'll solve of those problem fast.

So there is no real need for cultures to disappears, just for people to interact more with other cultures.
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Frumple

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2013, 06:09:04 am »

That said, do you think it's important to preserve these traditions?
I don't think it's important to preserve traditions for the sake of preserving traditions, m'self, or in preserving traditions whole cloth. There's no inherent value to a historical record or long running behavioral/cultural patterns; they're incidental and arbitrary, the results of accident rather than construction (though, of course, successive accidents can produce very practical outcomes.). If there's practical aspects to keeping parts of it around, then... good. Keep those parts, and do remember context can be important. But don't keep dirty water in with the baby, as the saying goes. Ideally we want a tub full of nothing but babies and no bath water at all, but if nothing else we want to minimize the bath water/baby ratio as much as possible.

The overall goal of cultural intermingling, t'me, is to steal every bloody useful thing from every bloody where and throw every bloody thing else to the curb. Tradition is no reason to hold on to detrimental behavioral patterns or to cleave to means and methods that are obviously inferior to other methods. Similarly, that a particularly beneficial behavioral pattern is associated with a particular cultural base is no reason to not utilize (as an individual, as a group) that behavioral pattern, and we shouldn't be letting obviously useful means and methods (even if they're only conditionally so based on geographic area or whatnot) drop off the chart just because they're practiced by people with relatively (relative to our own norms, anyway) funny names. We should definitely be more aggressive about thoroughly recording and documenting useful cultural bits and bobs and figuring out how to integrate and utilize them.

As a whole, though, I don't think culture genuinely matters. At all. What's important is the individual memetic components considered in aggregate to be culture, and those should be considered on their own merit before the worth of the aggregate is considered relevant (if it's relevant in the least). Insofar as multiculturalism goes, I think it currently does a better job than most things of facilitating that process, by dint of encouraging a lot of different cultural groups to get into fairly close contact and interaction, giving the memetic transfer, interaction, and competition a better environment to occur. I wouldn't necessarily say it's a good idea to keep dying cultures alive, though -- if it can't keep up, loot the body and let it die. Opinion of nationalism should be obvious from that, ha. The aggregate is pointless, and considering it to be of some kind of comparative merit is equally so.

As to th'concept of cultural blending causing a reduction in... something. Innovation? Interesting variations on the theme? Brought up earlier. I call bullshit. I read fanfiction, alright? If there's ever a situation where you're dealing with an insular, largely homogeneous memetic base, that'd be it, especially for older and more established fan bases. A great deal of innovation and interesting variations on the theme occur anyway. When it comes right down to it, even within a particular memetic aggregate you've got a great deal of individual moving parts, and the combinations they're capable of are tremendous. I think that it's more likely than not that, when it's all said and done, we're going to have something more vibrant and active in that sort of sense than anything more distinct separation is allowing to happen. Providing we don't fuck it up,* at that point we'll have all the best moving parts and all the less-than-best-but-still-good ones, too, and whatever structurally necessary bits associated with those. What we'll be able to make from that should be pretty bloody impressive.

Is my 2˘, anyway.

*This is probably the "big if", though. Maybe if we just don't screw it up too badly, heh.
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Hár

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2013, 06:33:01 am »

Islam.

I won't participate in a farce of a thread that can't even summon the guts to mention its main worry, but so soon on the heels of Lee Rigby being beheaded with knives on a London street, there's a certain elephant in the room. Nothing can be done with such ineffectual fainted-hearted mush that goes 45 posts with nothing on-point to the real concerns in everyone's minds. I'll just say that...

There are racists/etc who hate others outside of their own group in real life, but they are the crazies. Their attitude is slowly being disparaged and this shows no sign of slowing down (overall).

... This seems naive about most non-westernized cultures and their current trends. Please explain the steps that Saudi Arabia has taken in the past twenty years that led you to this conclusion. Alternatively, you can use Egypt and its glorious revolution as a source for data supporting your assertion.
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Max White

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2013, 06:40:36 am »

Except the same thing happens with all sorts of religions, and when it isn't religion it is something else. Crazy people find reasons to do crazy things, and religion is an easy one. Without it, they would find another.

You can't say there has never been a christian motivated murder before. Somebody killing because 'it is what their god wanted', but we don't stereotype christians based on their actions. We understand they are just a nutcase. Yet when the same thing happens with somebody of Islamic faith, we call it the 'Elephant in the room'. Look at how many homosexuals are beaten to death by religious extremists the world over of many faiths.

Islam isn't the issue here, it is just the one most visibly covered in the media.

Sheb

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2013, 06:47:52 am »

As for that guys murder... How is that different from blowing up a house with an drone-fired Hellfire missile? When you declare a war on terror, you cannot expect the others not to fight back...
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Hár

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2013, 06:48:37 am »

Christians are always bombing marathons. Excellent point there. Christians kill for their religion at almost the same rate that Islamists do, while shouting "Jesus is Awesome!" Thanks for point out the blatantly obvious fact there that I was missing!
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Eagle_eye

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2013, 06:53:11 am »

Averaged across history, yes, they probably do. Christianity being relatively peaceful is a phenomenon of the last few centuries, and probably just due to the fact that christian, whether officially or not, nations have dominated the world for the past two centuries or so.
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Sheb

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2013, 07:00:56 am »

Yes they do.


The fact is that Islamism took the place of Arab nationalism in the Arab world's psyche. It's more ideology than religion, and yes, people kill in its name like they kill for separatism, leftism, rightism, communism, and any other -ism.
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Frumple

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2013, 07:02:03 am »

Christians are always bombing marathons. Excellent point there. Christians kill for their religion at almost the same rate that Islamists do, while shouting "Jesus is Awesome!" Thanks for point out the blatantly obvious fact there that I was missing!
Hey, about that... just as, y'know, a representative sample. There's likely a difference in overall percentile rates, sure, but you better believe that has a lot more to do with socio-political issues than anything inherent to the religions.
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Max White

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2013, 07:03:33 am »

Christians are always bombing marathons. Excellent point there. Christians kill for their religion at almost the same rate that Islamists do, while shouting "Jesus is Awesome!" Thanks for point out the blatantly obvious fact there that I was missing!
Looking at the scope of christian history, yes. That is correct. And when they aren't at war shouting "Jesus is Awesome!" or some variant of, they are killing or enslaving the local population in straight out genocide. Is this because of Christianity? No, it isn't.
It is because of human nature. For pretty much all of our history we have been fighting and killing each other. It is happening in not only Islamic middle east right now, but also a lot of Africa.

We are very fortunate to live in post enlightened nations where we can, at times, avoid conflict. When we look at other places that haven't yet achieved various social ideals that we build our society on such as secularism, it is ill founded to assume that problems such as violence are unique to these faiths.

Sheb

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2013, 07:07:03 am »

And actually, the difference probably favor muslims. Here again is the table I posted in the other thread, with numbers from Europol's reports about terrorism in Europe.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 07:25:42 am by Sheb »
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Max White

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2013, 07:14:26 am »

Oh please, what is that? Numbers? Statistics? Facts? Facts are over rated!
I have speculation, and fear, and hyperbole! Aren't those so much more fun! Facts require lots of hard work to interpret and check and even then are subject to new data, but opinions never change!

Hár

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2013, 07:32:36 am »

Averaged across history, yes, they probably do. Christianity being relatively peaceful is a phenomenon of the last few centuries, and probably just due to the fact that christian, whether officially or not, nations have dominated the world for the past two centuries or so.

More twaddle that rationalizes the real matter into oblivion by a concerted effort at mental gymnastics. Suddenly, a discussion about present circumstances travels 400 years into the past in order to avoid confronting obvious current realities. You can't bring yourselves to admit how ludicrous it was for Max to suggest that christianity inspires just as much killing as islam today. Nothing will be accomplished in a thread with others so keen to deceive themselves.

I could have a discussion with you about what sorts of things happened before the crusades, and what the crusades were a response to, but why bother? You weren't being earnest. The "averaging over centuries" argument was just a flimsy smokescreen to avoid examining the modern realities, so it hardly goes anywhere to treat it as a serious argument.

Same with Sheb. If you don't see the difference between a state killing a terrorist (and yeah possibly his family) in a different country where he plots global attacks, and two civilians born in Britain incited to kill the locals in their own country, then the field is not fertile for arguing lucidly and constructively. Your intellect has been ruined by being fed false equivalencies. Your education did a divide-by-zero operation if this is how it trained your mind to operate.

I'm not here to "win" some argument. It can't be done in this environment. The people here believe unflinchingly the way that they do. I'm just here to point out how neutered and hollow this thread is until people begin talking earnestly about the issues that are really in people's minds. After the 45th post of no one mentioning Islamism and the most serious challenges to multi-culturalism, enough was finally enough. The emperor has no clothes. I await more information on Saudi liberalizing trends, btw.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2013, 07:34:28 am »

Islam.

I won't participate in a farce of a thread that can't even summon the guts to mention its main worry, but so soon on the heels of Lee Rigby being beheaded with knives on a London street, there's a certain elephant in the room. Nothing can be done with such ineffectual fainted-hearted mush that goes 45 posts with nothing on-point to the real concerns in everyone's minds. I'll just say that...
Passive aggressiveness will lend you no supporters, to be sure.

There are racists/etc who hate others outside of their own group in real life, but they are the crazies. Their attitude is slowly being disparaged and this shows no sign of slowing down (overall).
The EDL has a Jewish, Sikh and LGBT division. It's not a minority, it's a growing majority amongst all citizens irregardless of ethnicity if the rise of UKIP [who favour strong anti-immigration laws] support. The difference between them is that there are a few people in the EDL who would rather leave bacon on mosques than use democracy to actually progress, who would rather intimidate than inspire.

Except the same thing happens with all sorts of religions, and when it isn't religion it is something else. Crazy people find reasons to do crazy things, and religion is an easy one. Without it, they would find another.
No, this is very much a case of extremist Islam definitely causing this. The killer was a born Londoner and Catholic who converted to Islam. He killed talking of 'his country' not realizing he was standing on it.

As for that guys murder... How is that different from blowing up a house with an drone-fired Hellfire missile? When you declare a war on terror, you cannot expect the others not to fight back...
1. The UK has only just started using drones.
2. The British government has always been involved in fighting terrorists there, be it Jewish ones from 70 years ago to the modern Taliban who enjoyed mass murdering people or the Al-Qaeda who will never see true justice.
3. The troops in Afghanistan do not go around randomly slaughtering or torturing civilians, they are not the CIA. The best equipped British hospital is currently in Afghanistan.
4. It almost sounds like you're being apologetic for the brutal murder of an off-duty soldier.
5. And in any case I do seem to recall most Brits opposing the war on terror.

Their charts appear to be incredibly nuanced and detailed, but surviving Marshallese people and modern researchers are unable to read them. Their knowledge of currents and weather patterns would be invaluable to climate scientists and oceanographers today, but their traditions were destroyed by emigration and excessive cultural assimilation.
Suddenly Atlantis makes that much more sense.

Max White

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2013, 07:42:55 am »

I think you missed the point Hár. Historically, any and all ideals, movements, beliefs and faiths have been violent. Islam isn't even more violent than the majority of these. What makes it so special?
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