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[Sheb]

Hár, thanks for cherry picking what you answer to, and forgetting the case of modern Christian terrorism we linked to.

Also, while multiculturalism is often used as an indirect way to attack Islam, we tend to discuss the real subject and not its hidden meaning here. We can talk specifically about Islam if you want, but it's not the main subject of this thread.

Also, multiculturalism ain't about Islam everywhere. In Malaysia, it'd be about Indian and Chinese for example. You can't just assume everyone is from your place.

As for the comparison between terror and drone strike, I'm afraid it'd cause a derail, so I'm going to move it to another thread as soon as I find a good title for it.

[Hár]

And actually, the difference probably favor muslims. Here again is the table I posted in the other thread, with numbers from Europol's reports about terrorism in Europe.

Depends on the definitions. I doubt the rioting in Sweden would be classed as terrorism. I doubt this incident in 2010 in Grenoble was "terrorism" either, because this stuff is too frequent to be counted in such small statistics. If you control the definitions of what you want to acknowledge as terrorism and decide what the message should be, you can shape the facts to that message. It is clear that there's a lot of seething unrest surrounding the vague boundaries of Islamism that your Interpol data avoids. That makes it look good and downplays a nagging worry in European minds. Win-win.

I bet the slaying of Rigney also is found to be just another ordinary murder. It's better that way for all involved, don't you think?

Hár, thanks for cherry picking what you answer to, and forgetting the case of modern Christian terrorism we linked to.

I went there and it was mostly a few arson cases that resulted in no injuries. To my mind, the cherry-picking was the list itself, not my lack of being impressed by it enough to respond directly to it. That your list is being proffered as an example that christiant terrorism exists as a robust analogue to Islamism terrorism is itself evidence that people are not even trying to be serious here. Whatever contortion of logic and false equivalence is necessary to support the accepted message will be promptly enacted.

[Sheb]

Actually, it'd probably be classified as terrorism too. If anything, Europol tend to classify too many things as terrorism, on at least one occasion, anti-GMO activists destroying a field was counted as terrorism for example. Anyway, you can't just dismiss any facts that don't fit your weltanschauung as biased without providing your own facts.

As for those riots, well, for once it's not terrorism at all. You were talking about killing people in God's name, and now you're just moving the goalposts because you realize your arguments were bullshit.

This rioting has little to do with Islam. Just like the London riots, it's young, poor, disenfranchised men that take out their rage against anything flammable. some of them are Muslims, some of them are Christians.

[GlyphGryph]

And I'll come outright and say Islamism is a terrible thing. Islamists, Fascists, Klanners, all of them are cut from the same cloth. I'm not sure if they ARE the subject of this thread, though - can they really be called cultures in their own right? All of them exist as extremism within the context of a larger culture. These two murderers were born and raised in England, where they not? And are they truly all that different form the Breivik or McVeighs, murdering innocent people because of some warped beliefs that it serves their political goals? Is that really a problem of culture?

Because most Muslim's I've known, and I've known quite a few, are nothing like these two men. Do you think they should suffer for the crime of someone who is related by only religion? I'm not sure what you actually want, or what you're actually saying, other than that Islamists are bad, but that will, or at least should, meet with about as much opposition as Klanners or Nazis are bad (in general). People might oppose what they think you're implying, but I doubt most people would disagree with the general sentiment.

So what, exactly, is your point?

[Loud Whispers]

This rioting has little to do with Islam. Just like the London riots, it's young, poor, disenfranchised men that take out their rage against anything flammable. some of them are Muslims, some of them are Christians.

The rioting has a lot to do with Islam. Or rather, not specifically Islam, but the fact that fundamental Islam is capable of producing supremacist cultures very easily. Husby basically had a massive influx of immigrants that displaced the native Swedes there in the minority, till it became its own immigrant central with its own cultures. The Christians were the far-right extremists going around and attacking the rioters, this was very much the case of cultures clashing.
Meanwhile the London riots were something else entirely. It's a city where a brilliant number of ethnicities can confidently identify as British.

And I'll come outright and say Islamism is a terrible thing. Islamists, Fascists, Klanners, all of them are cut from the same cloth. I'm not sure if they ARE the subject of this thread, though - can they really be called cultures in their own right?

They seem to be sub-cultures and symptoms of larger systems.

[GlyphGryph]

What it seems is that there are certain extremist sub-cultures that, at their very core, seem to be fundamentally opposed to multiculturalism of any sort. I think describing these as Supremist Subcultures makes sense, and I'd agree that Islamists are certainly one of them (with a strong undercurrent of heavily inflated Political Victimization in their rhetoric).

If we were going to start exporting people from certain cultures and shipping them elsewhere, as someone already proposed quite seriously, I think we should start with the Supremists of all stripes. They can all live on an Island together somewhere, experiencing the joy of being able to kill one another off, and the rest of us can all breathe a bit easier. (Unfortunately, of course, there's often a hell of a lot of them.)

[Max White]

And I'll come outright and say Islamism is a terrible thing. Islamists, Fascists, Klanners, all of them are cut from the same cloth.

Now I am interested in hearing what your definition of Islam is. See I was under the impression it was the collective for various Muslim faiths and similar beliefs, comparable to Judaism.

If we were going to start exporting people from certain cultures and shipping them elsewhere, as someone already proposed quite seriously, I think we should start with the Supremists of all stripes. They can all live on an Island together somewhere, experiencing the joy of being able to kill one another off, and the rest of us can all breathe a bit easier. (Unfortunately, of course, there's often a hell of a lot of them.)

First they came for the fascists, and I didn't say anything because frankly I didn't like them anyway. Then they came for the global warming deniers, and I could see the benefit. Then they came for the militant atheists, and I was really an agnostic atheist anyway. Then they came for me, and the island they took me to was full of assholes.

But seriously, a lot has been built on freedom of speech, it is important. Even when it is immoral and offensive and uneducated, it is important that it is there.

[Loud Whispers]

If we were going to start exporting people from certain cultures and shipping them elsewhere, as someone already proposed quite seriously, I think we should start with the Supremists of all stripes. They can all live on an Island together somewhere, experiencing the joy of being able to kill one another off, and the rest of us can all breathe a bit easier. (Unfortunately, of course, there's often a hell of a lot of them.)

I think deporting anyone who isn't an illegal resident is a terrible idea. There isn't really a solid example of why enacting this sort of policy where you essentially deport all the 1st gen immigrants or whatever would not cause more damage than the negligible gain that isn't rooted in supremacy. And when you try to build a society of equals, you can't have supremacy.

In any case, in the rage thread there were some people who voiced strong opinions saying that current immigration laws were indeed a chaotic mess, and that the way citizeship/immigration is handled is currently not feasible at all.
What would be a right, or failing that, better model than the current one?

[misko27]

Oh please, don't get banned Har. Somehow I'm one of the more conservative people on this forum, we need more contrast.


Anyway, as a Serb, I can say Christian terrorism does happen. How about Anders Breivik, the guy who went on a rampage in Norway? Called himself a "Christian Crusader". The KKK is certainly both Christian and terrorist. And the Lord's Resistance Army, led by a Mr. Kony?

[Hár]

So what, exactly, is your point?

Mostly, the point is that this thread got a goodly length before anyone dared to raise one of the major hurdles to all this harmonious living together stuff. People were even saying things like "All that intolerance is fading away" when there are literally riots straining the fabric of multi-cultural society currently happening right now. There's not even an indication that the situation is getting better, let alone has  almost vanished. It was just a bit surreal that a discussion could be so deaf to realities.

So, anyway, yeah, this thread does make me a bit nervous about banning, so I'll engage the cloaking device again.

[Kansa]

As long as you don't start openly flaming people har you should be ok, this thread would be pointless if we did not have an opposing viewpoint to the issue and I doubt you will get banned for stating your opinion.

[Loud Whispers]

Oh please, don't get banned Har. Somehow I'm one of the more conservative people on this forum, we need more contrast.

Honestly Misko, I wouldn't have guessed it. Huh.

Anyway, as a Serb, I can say Christian terrorism does happen. How about Anders Breivik, the guy who went on a rampage in Norway? Called himself a "Christian Crusader". The KKK is certainly both Christian and terrorist. And the Lord's Resistance Army, led by a Mr. Kony?

The KKK is long since a joke, it's the Aryan brotherhood that comes closest to being terrorists - and they're a product of America's prison complex, the various churches aren't going around saying 'DEUS VULTE!' Whereas there are still in the modern world many radical Imams who frequently practice Taqiyah and violent indoctrination tactics.
Kony, joke. Though there are many, many, many Muslim and Christian conflicts that wouldn't be terrorism, but are so much more damaging.
Anders Breivik was a psychopath - read his early mental health reports. Christianity didn't cause him to be the way he is. What is much more chilling would be the people who view him as an idol to aspire to.

Not quite sure what the relevance of those examples are.

As long as you don't start openly flaming people har you should be ok, this thread would be pointless if we did not have an opposing viewpoint to the issue and I doubt you will get banned for stating your opinion.

Why only hold one viewpoint? Oppose yourself if no others will.

[Sheb]

Not in Europe or the US, but youhave extremist churches in Africa. Advocating for the death. Also, double standard: Breivik doesn't count because he's mad, but when it's a muslim doing something bad, suddenly it's because of Islam and not because of other reasons?

[misko27]

Because the thing is they are/were Terrorists. He mentioned the Boston bombings, they were lone wolves as well.


Also the anti-Abortion people. Lots of those scattered around here, though they rarely make headlines.

[Loud Whispers]

Not in Europe or the US, but youhave extremist churches in Africa. Advocating for the death. Also, double standard: Breivik doesn't count because he's mad, but when it's a muslim doing something bad, suddenly it's because of Islam and not because of other reasons?

No, because Anders Breivik was definitely a psychopath, assessed as such by psychiatrists from when he was a child. Michael Adebolajo was pretty normal until he converted to Islam, that's while ignoring the possible connections to Al Shabaab, who advocate strict sharia law.

Christianity stopped holding the authority to be able to call people to violence and war, whereas with Islam this is still not the case. There were seriously people saying world peace was threatened by cartoons.

Western supremacist groups are generally ethnic-based cohesive criminal groups based on race, whereas Muslim supremacist groups tend to be based on being Muslim.
This is the difference.

Also seriously, political correctness is nice, but do not pursue it to the point of blindness.