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Author Topic: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?  (Read 19107 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2013, 05:31:18 pm »

I'm just going to pop in and note that claiming that people from different cultures cannot get along is like claiming that people who like different bands can't get along.
Metal + Anyone

Also what with the rampant celebrity worship in todays world... Yes, you see exactly that.

Jay Z fans + Chris Brown fans
Chris Brown fans + Rihanna fans
Nicki Minaj fans + Anyone
Lady Gaga fans + DIE ANTWOORD fans

I think an analogy here could be made.

ibot66

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2013, 05:31:46 pm »

I'm just going to pop in and note that claiming that people from different cultures cannot get along is like claiming that people who like different bands can't get along.
And I am going to disagree with you. Being part of a culture is a rather large part of who you are and how you think, while liking a band is kind of minor.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2013, 05:54:36 pm »

I'm just going to pop in and note that claiming that people from different cultures cannot get along is like claiming that people who like different bands can't get along.
Metal + Anyone

Also what with the rampant celebrity worship in todays world... Yes, you see exactly that.

Jay Z fans + Chris Brown fans
Chris Brown fans + Rihanna fans
Nicki Minaj fans + Anyone
Lady Gaga fans + DIE ANTWOORD fans

I think an analogy here could be made.
This is why I like the analogy: it's BECAUSE people who like different bands tend to have disagreements.

There are plenty of crazies who will shout for the deaths of people who like things they don't like. However, there are plenty of people who do not hate other people. One attitude is healthy and one is destructive, and the destructive one should be looked down upon.


There are racists/etc who hate others outside of their own group in real life, but they are the crazies. Their attitude is slowly being disparaged and this shows no sign of slowing down (overall).
I'm just going to pop in and note that claiming that people from different cultures cannot get along is like claiming that people who like different bands can't get along.
And I am going to disagree with you. Being part of a culture is a rather large part of who you are and how you think, while liking a band is kind of minor.
That... doesn't in any way shape or form counter what I said.
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misko27

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2013, 07:22:47 pm »

I long for the day all crazies, espousing all ideologies/races/religions/bands and bringing a bad name upon them, are equal in universally being despised and equal under the Psyche Ward.
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Descan

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2013, 08:26:05 pm »

ptw
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Eagle_eye

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2013, 08:53:04 pm »

Quote from: kaijyuu
I'm just going to pop in and note that claiming that people from different cultures cannot get along is like claiming that people who like different bands can't get along.
And I am going to disagree with you. Being part of a culture is a rather large part of who you are and how you think, while liking a band is kind of minor.
That... doesn't in any way shape or form counter what I said.

Band preference has no real influence on your behavior outside of the very narrow scope of concerts and picking music. Culture influences everything about you. Your preference for a band influences what you prefer, but that doesn't mean you can't tolerate other music. Cultures, however,  dictate that some things are unacceptable, rather than simply not preferable. Some different cultures certainly can get along, but there are areas where there are fundamental incompatibilities: In Saudi Arabia, child marriage is considered perfectly acceptable, while it's banned in the United States. There's really not any room for compromise: either it's acceptable, or it isn't. Either one side gives in, the two groups are sufficiently separate that the issue never comes up, or there's conflict.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for nationalism. Rather, we should try to homogenize all human cultures. If one is inherently superior to others, then it's obvious that it should
be spread as widely as possible in order to bring that benefit to the greatest number of people possible. If either of two cultures can't be said to be better than the other, then why should anyone care which, or which mix of the two, is dominant?
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kaijyuu

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2013, 09:21:12 pm »

Cultures, however,  dictate that some things are unacceptable, rather than simply not preferable. Some different cultures certainly can get along, but there are areas where there are fundamental incompatibilities: In Saudi Arabia, child marriage is considered perfectly acceptable, while it's banned in the United States. There's really not any room for compromise: either it's acceptable, or it isn't. Either one side gives in, the two groups are sufficiently separate that the issue never comes up, or there's conflict.
Fair point. This only means parts are incompatible, and I should note that pretty much 100% of these incompatibilities arise from moral concerns. Conflict over moral systems has been happening since the beginning of time and probably won't ever go away, but I do think it's better that these conflicts occur than not.

I don't think it's acceptable to allow genital mutilation to occur anywhere regardless of anyone's cultural ideas, for example. I don't think "you go do your thing and I do mine" to be a valid solution. That conflict should happen.


For everything else though, we can pretty much say "live and let live" like we should for people's band preferences.

Quote
If either of two cultures can't be said to be better than the other, then why should anyone care which, or which mix of the two, is dominant?
Diversity and variety is a value of its own. The problem would be if one culture is actively destroying another (barring the things earlier in this post), because then we'd all end up the same and that would be boring.
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For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Eagle_eye

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2013, 09:25:48 pm »

Quote
For everything else though, we can pretty much say "live and let live" like we should for people's band preferences.

Right.. but the moral differences are the only ones that really matter.

Quote
because then we'd all end up the same and that would be boring.

I think a vast reduction in worldwide conflict is worth not being able to observe people behave in ways that seem unusual. Sure, it'll get rid of some things of interest, but that's such an incredibly miniscule portion of human experience that it doesn't really matter. The world could be a hell of a lot more interesting if we wanted to make it that way by, for example, instituting a rotating legal code, but that wouldn't make up for it becoming an awful place to live.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2013, 10:30:41 pm »

What's funny is that I've gotten along with and had more success interacting with people from very different "cultures" than I have from the people who are supposedly part of the culture I live in.

It turns out that it's just like most features of race and gender - internal variation is so much wider than between-group variation.

Or it could just be cultures have nothing to do with countries. One or the other, I suppose.

Also,
Rather, we should try to homogenize all human cultures. If one is inherently superior to others, then it's obvious that it should
be spread as widely as possible in order to bring that benefit to the greatest number of people possible. If either of two cultures can't be said to be better than the other, then why should anyone care which, or which mix of the two, is dominant?
There are three very big, very dangerous, and very likely false assumptions here. First, that there is a generally superior culture rather than one superior under certain conditions, second that we have a way to detect it in an effective manner, and third that we would be best off only having that culture.

It's a bit like market economics. If everyone wanted the same thing and was capable of the same capitalism would completely break down. The core essence of it's strength is that everyone values different things. This is what makes the markets move and the world work. There is similar strength that can come from having multiple cultures - different cultures hold different values, meaning that both cultures can come away from an exchange having "won".

This is impossible between identical cultures. If there's an exchange, they can at best break even, and more likely one party to the exchange will lose.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 10:37:47 pm by GlyphGryph »
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misko27

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2013, 10:40:08 pm »

What's funny is that I've gotten along with and had more success interacting with people from very different "cultures" than I have from the people who are supposedly part of the culture I live in.
Here is the problem. Someone part of a culture doesn't refer to it as as supposable. You never thought of yourself as a person involved in the culture, creating a block between the people you say you are "supposedly" part of and you. It stands to reason you associate yourself as someone not of that culture, making you more open to people of different cultures. Your culture so to speak is that of not being the culture you live in. If immigrants have taught me one thing it's that culture is not a place where you are, it's who you are. In your case, it's rejection of the current culture.

Also, it implies you are a bit of a hipster in this regard, but that's beside the point and highly debatable.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2013, 11:02:28 pm »

That is incredibly confusing. I was just trying to see that I have met people in my life that were, from talking to people like those here, supposed to be part of the same culture as me, which implies they would have similar values and influence, but whose experience was in every way that mattered absolutely alien to me.

This doesn't even mean they were worse than me in any way, they just came from a different background. The things they new were not the things I knew, the experiences they had were unfamiliar to me and mine to them, and our values were fundamentally different. Despite being from the same country as me, and even from roughly the same region of that country, the only thing we actually seemed to share was a language and a national affiliation.

If myself and that person are part of the same culture, I'm not certain that "culture" really holds as much weight as people seem to think it does. If they say we should strive to reject or absorb, say, my friend from India or Norway into "our" culture, I wouldn't even know where to begin if I wanted to, since I already seem to have more in common with those people than with this person who is supposed to be another member of the same culture as me. The concept itself is ludicrous.

Much like race, where there is far more internal genetic variation WITHIN races than the average difference BETWEEN them, culture is a lot less useful as a defining, unifying feature than people seem to want to believe.
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DWC

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2013, 11:12:29 pm »

I'm not totally sure multiculturalism and nationalism are exclusive. Different cultures can still share common values and share a strong common identity as a member of a nation.

Also, maybe I'm just not well educated or something, but I've never heard of a good definition for what multiculturalism really means or a convincing argument of why it is a desirable thing, let alone something that needs to be pursued as public policy.
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Solifuge

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2013, 03:30:00 am »

I suppose I could step in as a sort of opposition here. I'm very concerned with the death of indigenous cultures, due to the influx of new people, and excessive cultural blending. Through trial and error, over thousands of years, cultural groups all over the world have made useful discoveries about the physical world, about government and society, about medicine, diet, and healthy ways of living, which can be beneficial in ways the rest of the world may not recognize or understand. And when cultures blend and mix without maintaining their distinctness, that knowledge can be lost permanently. And for that knowledge to be forever lost is a terrible thing for everyone.

The United States are often seen as the pinnacle of cultural blending. We cherry-pick practices from all sorts of peoples and traditions. However, many to most US Americans don't keep in touch with their cultural roots, and the knowledge and practices that came with them. You could argue that the dietary problems in the US are tied to the loss of traditional diets and healthy eating practices in most US families. Traditional cultures have perfected balanced diets and meals over thousands of years... and without these deep-rooted food traditions (and an abundance of unhealthy food options), many people in the US end up eating very unhealthy things.

As a different example, perhaps you are familiar with the Marshal Islands in the Pacific, and how their indigenous populations were shuffled around by the US in order to perform Nuclear Testing. Historically, the Marshallese were able to navigate the ocean from island to island, supporting an extensive trade network throughout the Pacific... and they did this without maps, compasses, or astronomical tools, using a complex series of charts that marked the ocean's currents. Due to their populations being shuffled, and then absorbed into other cultures in the wake of the Nuclear Tests, most of their culture was lost, including their deep and extensive knowledge of the Pacific currents and long-term weather patterns. Their charts appear to be incredibly nuanced and detailed, but surviving Marshallese people and modern researchers are unable to read them. Their knowledge of currents and weather patterns would be invaluable to climate scientists and oceanographers today, but their traditions were destroyed by emigration and excessive cultural assimilation.

Technologies for farming, animal handling methods, dietary practices, medicines, languages, histories, and storytelling traditions, even political systems... all these things can be lost if we don't shepherd our cultural heritage. And these losses are felt by the whole world. That said, do you think it's important to preserve these traditions? And how can we practically do this, in a world of cultural assimilation?
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Jelle

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2013, 05:03:37 am »

It would be better were a person seen firstly as a unique individual and secondly member of a cultural or ehtnic group or wichever, instead of the other way around. No amount of labels you put on a person will tell you more then actually getting to know and understand someone, wich would go a long way to despel the many illusions of disparity.
Then there's also the tendency to overly focus on differences between individuals or groups, rather then see both differences and the vastly more numerous similarities. But I suppose that's simply human nature to seek out conflict and form opposings groups to clash, can't really be helped can it.

Personally I try not to descriminate, in this instance based on culture or nationality, in any situation. This means I will only apply generalities when generally speaking, but never ever when talking about a person or group (smaller then a whole cultural group ofc, then it would be generally speaking) of people specifically , effectively treating anyone and everyone as someone I know nothing about until I learn more about that specific individual. Wether or not it conforms to expectations based on culture etc, is irrelevant.

I suppose I'm rambling, just my 2cents on the matter.
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Mech#4

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Re: Multiculturalism & Nationalism, obstacles to coexisting?
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2013, 05:14:34 am »

I do think on the one hand we should try to preserve cultural traditions for the interest they can hold as well as for the members of those communities, but on the other hand I see the lose of culture as an inevitable occurrence, one that has happened many times over the course of history and has also given rise to new cultures. The Mesopotamian culture is long dead and buried, as well as the Sumerian,  Babylonian and Persian, not through any real suppression (though I will grant some of those collapsed due to war) just over the course of the years they merged into other cultures.

Is that a bad thing? I don't think so, but actively trying to suppress a culture isn't good, but we should be aware that this kind of thing will happen on it's own. It's recognising the difference between the two that's the difficult part and trying to figure out what to do we'll argue about until the heat death of the sun.


Well... maybe not that long. :P
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