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3 (23.1%)

Total Members Voted: 13

[kaijyuu]

Risk of rape should never be used to deny women equal treatment, but rather serve as a sign that better enforcement of anti-rape and education is needed.

This is all I popped in to say, so I'll just quote it to reinforce it.

[Max White]

So this thread will go nowhere as long as we all are in agreement... Shall I play the role of devils advocate for us? It is one of my favorite parts...

[DJ]

If you can't drag a wounded 90kg man to safety you have no business being in frontline infantry. Not many women can do this, but the ones that can shouldn't be forbidden from enlisting in infantry (including special forces) if they want to do so.

And yeah, as far as rape is concerned, I'm sure they're all aware of that risk and if they want to take it nobody's got any business stopping  them. And it's not like getting beheaded with a pocket knife is that much better.

[Knight of Fools]

Since we're in a state of agreement, I'd like to bring up Willfor's post, which I found intriguing (In a disturbing, sickening kind of way). I think it's worth discussing, as long as we omit the unnecessary details, but if tahujdt, Toady, or enough people ask, I'll delete/spoiler this post.

For those who want to read it themselves, the article itself is rather graphic, so let's not discuss those parts. If you have a weak stomach or are sensitive, don't read it. At all. I'll just summarize it as best I can.

Willfor's Post:

Spoiler: Trigger Warning (click to show/hide)

[TRIGGER WARNING=RAPE] linky

I'm also going to quote this phrase but also put it under a trigger warning spoiler as well:

Later on I speak with Dr Angella Ntinda, who treats referrals from the RLP. She tells me: "Eight out of 10 patients from RLP will be talking about some sort of sexual abuse."

"Eight out of 10 men?" I clarify.

"No. Men and women," she says.

"What about men?"

"I think all the men."

I am aghast.

"All of them?" I say.

"Yes," she says. "All the men."

I'm also throwing in with what Max and Vector are saying: It's really not a reason to keep women out.

I'll try to keep this PG13, but for those who don't want the gritty details from the article: Male rape in places torn apart by civil war, Africa receiving most of the focus in the article, is turning out to be a much larger problem than anyone's even willing to admit. Men, plagued by disease and serious, long-term injuries that were a direct result of their rape are unable to admit even to their doctors what happened to them due to lack of help and a strong social stigma against men being raped. Doctors give lackluster treatment (if any), social programs (Including international ones) designed to help rape victims don't have any help for men, and families ostracize men who admit to having been raped. Their wives literally take their kids and leave them for something they had no control over. Finally, it's only because of attempts of open minded and caring people to help them that these men are finally coming forward with their stories. The article says that as help is made more available to male rape victims, the numbers of men willing to admit what happened to them has risen dramatically, and hints that as the stigma is stamped out and more help is provided that even more will come forward.

The article makes a lot of good points, too: Society's unwillingness to admit that male rape can even be a possibility puts women in the constant state of "victim" and men as protectors or defilers. For obvious reasons, men will be the instigator in the vast majority of rape cases, but accepting the idea that men are also getting raped would be a huge leap in the right direction, both in helping men defend themselves/receive treatment and bridging the gender gap on what's generally considered something that only happens to women (Which only perpetuates the stigma that women are vulnerable).


I've always suspected that male rape was more common than it's pretended to be, and that the stigma against a man admitting that sort of weakness was keeping its awareness down, but I had no clue it was such a huge problem. I'm curious to see if, as gender roles become hazier and people are more willing to be more open about these sorts of things, we'll get a better idea of what the numbers are across the board, not just in third world countries.

I'll admit that it's a fear that's been in the back of my mind for some time. It's not a fear you want to admit in public, and neither is it something you want to admit is even a possibility to yourself. No, we'd rather pretend that this is fully a woman problem, and those women should really get around to being safer or something. So when it does end up happening to a man he's practically destroyed, because all of the illusions he had about what rape is and how it affected him are completely turned upside down and he has nowhere to turn to.

Bringing it to the front of my mind makes me realize that I may have to take the same steps a woman would have to take to defend herself in such a situation, rather than simply wishing really hard that it's one of those things that I'll never have to deal with. It also brings a huge psychological equalizer to the field to the whole gender rights debate: If a woman is more able to defend herself from rape than I am, how could I even have an inkling that women are inferior to me?

[Leafsnail]

There are plenty of female soldiers in combat already really.

[ed boy]

Risk of rape should never be used to deny women equal treatment, but rather serve as a sign that better enforcement of anti-rape and education is needed.

This is all I popped in to say, so I'll just quote it to reinforce it.

I would argue that as long as rape is considered a (primarily) female problem, it's impossible to have anything under the anti-rape umbrella without compromising equal treatment.

Also, the context in which the danger of rape was being discussed (combat zones) is one that I would argue that education is not a possibility.

EDIT: on the subject of women in the military, there is a very large problem in that an awful lot of people consider harm done to a woman to be substantially worse than harm done to a man. I imagine that some high-ranking people in the military would like to avoid women being put in dangerous roles because a woman being injured/killed would be a lot worse publicity than a man being injured/killed.

[GreatJustice]

I'd generally be in favour of women in the military, assuming they're held to the same standards as men, but a fellow I know in the US Army pointed out a few problems:

1. These days, to be a capable soldier means being able to lug around hundreds of pounds of equipment in a backpack while running, something very few women are capable of doing (and even those who are able would tend towards getting some form of muscle damage in the long run). Seeing as how many people in the DoD would put the PR of "Women are in the military, look how egalitarian we are!" over actually having an efficient system, the long term result of this is a bunch of underqualified women who can't realistically pull their own weight being let in.

2. Because of societal attitudes right now, many men in the military would in turn go full macho in rescuing women in danger during combat, possibly to the detriment of the entire mission. In turn, enemies note "Hey! If we aim specifically at the women in their army, they start doing stupid things! Lets kill/maim as many women in their army as possible to mess up unit cohesion!", which THEN leads to the PR nightmare of dead female soldiers having their pictures wind up in the news. This problem could conceivably go away with time, but not any time in the near future.

3. Logistical problems. This one doesn't come up much, but its probably the biggest issue (rape really isn't as big of an issue as people make it out to be, except for the aforementioned PR issues). A "base" in Afghanistan is often about 30 square feet large, and has to be extremely compact. Thus, you have one, maybe two outhouses, and a bunch of PVC pipes stuck in the ground called "piss tubes". For practical reasons, women can't really use the piss tubes, and chances are the women are going to want their own outhouse (and considering the fact that there's only one or two to start and women aren't using the piss tubes, this means the women will need additional outhouses regardless). To build this outhouse, you need plywood, but there isn't any plywood in Afghanistan so you have to fly it back from the US of A or Europe. Now assuming women are properly "integrated" and aren't just crowded around a few bases, you're now trying to coordinate fleets of helicopters flying in plywood for outhouses because there's a woman there, and you have to do this with every tiny ass patrol base with a woman.

[DJ]

You can't reasonably expect privacy in a combat zone. Unisex outhouses are to be expected. I doubt that the few women that pass the physical requirements would put that much of an additional strain on the outhouses (only count #1, because #2 should remain the same regardless of gender).

[Glowcat]

I would argue that as long as rape is considered a (primarily) female problem, it's impossible to have anything under the anti-rape umbrella without compromising equal treatment.

I'm not sure what you even mean here. Cracking down on instances of sexual assault in the military is supposed to be a bad thing? It would apply equally to anyone effected, whatever gender/sex they fell under.

Also, the context in which the danger of rape was being discussed (combat zones) is one that I would argue that education is not a possibility.

The context expanded to incidents within the military itself. Educating people about what's considered sexual assault, the penalties attached to it, and how to report incidents is very much possible. If we have people who ignore the warning see above.

[GreatJustice]

You can't reasonably expect privacy in a combat zone. Unisex outhouses are to be expected. I doubt that the few women that pass the physical requirements would put that much of an additional strain on the outhouses (only count #1, because #2 should remain the same regardless of gender).

Yet women do expect privacy in a combat zone, and you end up with situations where infantrywoman x is suing infantryman y for coming across her while taking a dump and so on. You get a bunch of sexual harassment/sexual assault suits being filed, some of which are legitimate and some of which aren't, but all of which turn things into a circus.

[Scoops Novel]

I know this is somewhat off-topic, but who, personality and background speaking, make up the bulk of military recruits now? I wouldn't think most young men or women have much faith in our wars, and it's been troubling me.

[Glowcat]

Still young people. Military service is still one of the few options available to obtain higher education if you come from a lower income. They don't have to love the wars we're fighting to try securing a better future for themselves.

[Scoops Novel]

Well that's depressing for reform isn't it? There's got to be more to it then that though, surely.

[Gotdamnmiracle]

What the hell am I reading?! What is the Iraqi militia? We haven't been in Iraq for like a decade. Do you mean the Afghani army (AA)?  And no, rape, murder and all of that is unthinkable to most of them, writing that they are the kind of people who would do that is prejudice and ignorant. Most (all) are practicers of the islamic faith, rape is a filthy act in this faith and is a good way to start a feud. Murder is only okay if it can be justified, which often it can, to anybody encroaching on their countries business, namely all american military. We do have women in this capacity, the are called FET teams, and serve for medical usage when dealing with a female, injured, foriegn national, as well as provide the female ground forces element, despite the fact that they are a rarity (I'm a little shaky on this because i know they exist but I have never even seen one, seriously, you never see these.)

The war we were fighting in Afghanistan was on the talliban and Al queda, and was fought, less with bullets, but with winning the hearts and minds of each village, showing them that it is less profitable to grow poppies, and pay our enemies, than to negotiate with us and let us provide them with services and supplies.

Seriously, ask me anything on it and I will try and give you the most correct info I can get, I do live in a barracks with combat veterans after all.

[Scoops Novel]

Well, rape pillage and burn is generally just assumed to be a fact of life in war on all sides, Gotdamnmiracle. I'd be interested in hearing about this hearts and minds angle, but bear in mind I'm taking that to mean survival, less dictatorial goverment and profit.