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[Griffionday]

Quick post: reviewing for a midterm that's in less than an hour.

Cheesecake:

Okay. I'm sorry. That was a stupid move. Unvote. I seriously don't know who to vote for. I guess I ask questions. So, could you tell me what kind of questions to ask please? Thanks.

Well, seeing as you don't seem to have reads on anybody yet; RVS is your friend.  Use your lack of knowledge about the game to your advantage by asking people why they're doing what they're doing (be more specific of course).  Point out where we appear to be playing differently than you expect from reading the information and guides here, and ask us why we are doing so.  If you're not satisfied with our answers, or our answers don't make sense to you, vote for us and ask some more. 

When you get into the flow of things everything should make more sense.

Lenglon:

It's interesting that you removed the quote from this section. did you want to avoid having people look at the bit about "excitement of the hunt", something that you hadn't been displaying?

I'm sorry my enthusiasm for the game isn't coming across to you... but it's there in fairly plain site if you've actually read my posts.  If you insist I'll provide an annotated commentary on my mood later.

really. what i'm talking about is partally the way you were questioning me. as you yourself pointed out, i never really felt like i needed to focus very much on your questions. why? becuase they were repeats of vector's. After that I started looking over the rest of your posts and I found something interesting. You've been keeping a very centered position, not taking many if any risks and not going to any real extremes. Vector for contrast commited and pushed... hard. You've been active, and your posts have contained real content, but you never seem driven or Excited. It really does remind me of the very centered way deathsword posted. nothing scummy, no real pressure, never over-commiting to anything. you're making sure every case you make has very firm ground to stand on.

"Nothing scummy" and "no real pressure"? Those are pretty much opposites.  Now as to why I'm not applying pressure to you: I'm under a bit of a time crunch with school and work and so only have time for one case at a time; while you seem more blatantly scummy, Shinigami is a bit more grey for me and so he's the current focus of my pressure.  Need I remind you that we're only part way through the day?

As for making sure every case I make has firm ground: You seem to only be observing my negative cases (on you and Shinigami) as I AM going out on limbs for my positive cases on Vector and griffinpup; missing half of my cases, specifically my town reads, strikes me as esspecially scummy as it indicates that you consider the only valid type of case to be ones on who you see as scum.  I see this focus as scummy because as town we know that we not only need to find who are likely scum, but also who we can likely trust so as to focus our pressure where it is actually useful.  Scum I feel would be more interested in just finding scummy behaviors, as they can be presented to the town for mislynching.  Scum already know who town is, so trust isn't really an issue and they won't feel as much of a need to build their town reads.

why are you being so careful to never get caught off balance? why the caution? It's not exactly a scum play, but it's certainly one that prevents you from being attacked effectively... a defensive style, in other words.

I don't know how well you know my meta, but I've ALWAYS tried to make my play obviously town, as should everyone regardless of their wincon.  Actually I feel like I've not had the time in RL to be able to do this as much here as I have in previous games.  The reason I have this goal is not to hide or discourage people from pressing me on my play; but rather to allow them to play to their best and not introduce noise into their reads.  If they want to validate their read on me then they should.  And as a matter of fact I'm rather suspicious of people who chose to unilaterally group me with town and then never check their read (before you say anything: this doesn't currently apply to this game, as it's fairly early D1; I'm just giving you the theory behind my playstyle).

[Lenglon]

Day:
haha, nice, hard shutdown, attacking me in the process, again.

I'm sick of that.

I'm really, really, sick of that

ok then, since you can't get it though your thick skull what I said, let me make this clear.

your attacks are not putting yourself at risk. you have yet to push hard enough on anyone, me, or anyone else, to make yourself look scummy as a side-result. you spoke of excitement of the hunt. there never is excitement to be gained from situations with no risk. no risk, no excitement. the alternative situation you yourself presented, where you would get your excitement, would be being the hunted, the prey, where every action and inaction is a risk in of itself.

vector pressed me hard enough to put herself at risk, shinigami took risks defending me, I'm at risk pretty much no matter what I do at this point, Pup is slightly overextending as well. even Dem is taking more risks than you. the only people who arn't taking risks right now are you, captain, ranger, and cheesecake. of the four of you, you're the most active, and the one who spoke of the thrill of the hunt. hypocrite.

nothing scummy and no real pressure are not opposite. pushing someone hard enough they start to break usually requires making yourself slightly scummy in the process. as I said before, look at vector's push against me.

and of COURSE i'm focusing harder on the negative cases. my goal is to locate scum, not to blind myself to the potential for someone to not be town. Positive cases matter a hell of a lot more when there's fewer players. earlygame like this you arn't going to be able to find scum by process of elimination, so why are you wasting time and generating "noise" even bothering to make them in the first place? save it for when it matters if you're so worried about "noise" generation.

[Vector]

^ This is a good point.

Griffionday, one of your persistent problems is that you play a very safe, pat game.  When I was playing scum against you, it made you look obvtown-- at least when compared with everyone else out there, haha.  Now it's making you look a bit defensive.  I suspect that you're having trouble with worrying about breaking people and hurting their feelings.

Here's something for you: we all signed up to break and be broken.  We can handle it.  Get to cracking heads!  This is why everyone always thinks Tiruin is scum, and why I've been able to use her as scum.  If you let folks' feelings control your play before you hit that "gentleman's agreement" we've talked about, then you will be led around by the nose.

Obviously, don't go past that line.  But folks will let you know when you're crossing it.

Okay. I'm sorry. That was a stupid move. Unvote. I seriously don't know who to vote for. I guess I ask questions. So, could you tell me what kind of questions to ask please? Thanks.

Have you read Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible in the OP yet?

[RangerCado]

Lenglon: I'm not taking many risks because i haven't had any risks to take so far, and i'm being more controlled of my posts rather than what i did Day 1 of Magic Mafia. This day, you don't have to take many risks anyway. We have no leads, almost no information, all we have to go on are gut feelings and major slips ups. Risks also paint a big target for mafia on your back because everything can become WIFOM from there. Hypocrisy is also not a scum tell unless its very specific situation.

PupGriff: You've slowly been popping up on my buddying list. Why are you trying to buddy your fellow Griff?

DayGriff: Vector and Lenglon have a point. Your play always seems to become very mellow when your initial hunting momentum stops. Lets get you back in the game! Who are your top 3 scum picks, why are they your top 3, and who should be lynched first of those 3? (I don't care if this sounds like buddying or looks like i need direction, i've already laid down my reads and active hunting players are better than non-active ones.)

[griffinpup]

PupGriff: You've slowly been popping up on my buddying list. Why are you trying to buddy your fellow Griff?

Perhaps you missed the series of posts explaining it.

griffinpup:

P.S.  Just keep poking with your spear Shinigami, there's no way you're going to take down GriffionDay.   

I just made a fairly long post that included discussing how I view and react to buddying... And you buddy me to see how I react.  I LOVE your sense of style.  My only issue with what I think you're doing is that it would probably be better to have waited a post or two so I'd have more likely not to notice your ploy.

Just to note in case I'm wrong about what you're doing here: I'm assuming your post means you're rooting for me.  That's okay, (probably best to keep it in your head in case you are seen as buddying) but just because you are picking sides doesn't mean you shouldn't be hypercritical of both our cases.  I feel this misjudgment (more than an inherent imbalance in the team powers) is what cost the game to scum IC so often in the past.

But I seriously doubt you needed to be told that.

Wait a post or two?  I waited almost a whole page!  I also couldn't pass up the opportunity that Tiruin's post gave.  Not only could I comment on his great writing, I could buddy up to you using his own writing.

Somehow, you can sense that the soldiers are alive given by the apparent fear in the air. That, and the fact of a Pawn trying to destroy a Rook by swinging his spear at the flighty messenger.

I could make a joke about your name and imply that Shinigami, who you happened to be butting heads with, was of lower value then you.  Pawn < Rook.  Regardless, I thought that you were too vain to see my ploy.  That was my first read.  I did learn valuable things in this encounter though.  You saw this one, but you won't see my next one!

My 'buddying' with GriffionDay was exactly that.  Buddying.  The purpose, however, was different then most buddying.  My comment was in response to one of his large posts, in which he addressed buddying thoroughly.  I wanted to see how he reacted to me buddying him.  Unfortunately, he wasn't so full of himself that he didn't see what I was trying to do.  Frankly, I messed up my timing of my ploy.  I should of waited until he posted a few times to make it seem less obvious.
I have a question about you not catching this though.  You say you have a null read on me, because you haven't looked into my posts enough to justify a read.  And you missed this conversation that I had.  Are you simply being negligent when it comes to me?  Do you honestly believe that I haven't posted enough to generate a read?  Why haven't you spent more time analyzing my posts if you don't have a read yet?

[Vector]

Which reactions to your buddying would have given you what information, griffinpup?

[griffinpup]

I believe that I answered all the questions addressed to me at the moment, but if I missed one on my multiple rereads then by all means, bring it up.  Until then, a few of my own.

Shinigami-  You seem to ask a lot of people their opinions, but to the extent of my knowledge, you haven't offered an opinion on all the the players on the game, or at least the ones you have reads on, like a number of us have.  Please do.  Tell me who is scummy, who's town, and which scummy player should be lynched first.

[griffinpup]

Which reactions to your buddying would have given you what information, griffinpup?

Let's start with him not directly responding to that post at all.  I would of pushed... er... 'buddied' a little more, then a little more, until I got a reaction.  Be that him jumping to my defense on an attack unrelated to my buddying, or openly calling me out for buddying him.  If this happened, I would know the limit, or threshold, he has for people buddying him.  I could compare this to the buddying levels of other situations that he has called people on, and see if he was particularly susceptible to being buddied.  Him reacting differently based on whether I was buddying him or someone else would give me valuable information about him. 
If he immediately, and drastically, reacted to my buddying attempt, I would know that he is hyper-sensitive to buddying.  If he reacted as he did, calling me out on it, but not for buddying, but for me buddying him to see how he reacts, I get to know that he's not an idiot, that I should pay more attention to my timing, and that he can get people's reasons for doing what they do, not just what they do.
I hope that answers your question!

[Vector]

Uh-huh.  And how does buddying susceptibility relate to your finding out if he's town or scum?

[griffinpup]

Uh-huh.  And how does buddying susceptibility relate to your finding out if he's town or scum?

I'm not necessarily saying that I'd find out whether or not he was scum or town.  What I am saying is that the knowledge that I would gain, like his buddying susceptibility, would be valuable.  For example, if I happened to believe very strongly that he was town, then I would know how easily he could be duped by a scum buddying up to him.  I could then act accordingly, whether the correct action be shouting about the scum's buddying attempt so he realizes it, or letting him pound the scum into smithereens himself.
I believe that him accepting my buddying without blinking would also be a scum tell, who is looking for blind followers to help him lynch the rest.  Potential WIFOM territory there, though, so hard to make a decisive call.
You also have to realize that this is my first time playing with you particular people, and I want to learn all your mannerisms and weaknesses, so I can exploit or compensate for them, whatever the case may be.

[Captain Ford]

Hmmm...I kind of expected a response from Demdemeh by now. My vote will stay where it is until he responds.


Cheesecake: Let me help you out here. The first thing you need to do is pick somebody, then yell at them in all capital letters, "DIE SCUM", then vote somebody else and demand they raise a case on the first guy you yelled at.

Okay, don't do that. But if you're going to vote somebody, at least dig up some dirt on them. Ideally, you should dig up dirt on everybody and then vote the person who is most dirty.

Of course the first thing you should do is answer all the questions that have been directed at you. Like this one:


Cheesecake: Are you scum? Why or why not?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"that is, no good"- sonic the hedgehog.

*cringes* I read it in his voice.

Oh god no, the flashbacks. Make them stop. Please. 

[Vector]

Yeah, this is all WIFOM territory.  You're assuming that scum isn't going to play your compensation, and so on, and so forth.

There's been a lot of questions about how someone will behave in one situation or another, but those questions are almost valueless.  Your job is to find scum and hang them, and though you could spend days faffing about and learning who's weak to buddying and who isn't, your goal needs to always be finding scum, not learning the details of some situation that may or may not come up in the long run.

Scum isn't going to just sit back while you experiment.  Scum is going to be quietly learning how to distract you and keep you busy with things other than lynching.

[griffinpup]

Yeah, this is all WIFOM territory.  You're assuming that scum isn't going to play your compensation, and so on, and so forth.

There's been a lot of questions about how someone will behave in one situation or another, but those questions are almost valueless.  Your job is to find scum and hang them, and though you could spend days faffing about and learning who's weak to buddying and who isn't, your goal needs to always be finding scum, not learning the details of some situation that may or may not come up in the long run.

Scum isn't going to just sit back while you experiment.  Scum is going to be quietly learning how to distract you and keep you busy with things other than lynching.

I agree.  Nor did I forgo scumhunting in favor of this minor ploy.  I was compiling a case on Demdemeh through all of this.  A case that has gone unanswered, as of yet.

[Tiruin]

Vote standings:

• RangerCado(0) -
• Griffionday(1) - Shinigami_King
• Lenglon(0) -
• Cheesecake(1) - Vector
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(3) - griffinpup, Captain Ford, RangerCado
• Shinigami_King(2) - Demdemeh, Griffionday
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(2) - Cheesecake, Lenglon

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 23, 2013 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker!


The sounds of wood against stone bring a new tone to the arguments of the day.

"Excuse me, everyone. I need some fresh air. I can't think straight here."

The woman replies, somewhat in a sour tone after having a Pawn getting..."cleaned out" by a Rook.

"Move over by the window there--beware, there are no railings. Just a force field to keep things in."
"That'll do, ma'am. Just...give me time."
"Don't look down."

Cheesecake has requested a replacement!

Dear Tiruin,

I'd just like to ask to be replaced in the Beginner's Mafia game. I'm sorry, but I don't think that I'm cut out for Mafia. I simply don't have enough time, brainpower, or skill to play. If there are no replacements for me now, I'll continue on playing until there is one, as per my sense of responsibility. Once again, I'm sorry. I might try Mafia again once I learn more by reading old posts.

From your dear forumite and baked friend,
Cheesecake.

Ye shall be miss'd.

What's wrong with Sonic's voice btw O_o the only time I remember watching or hearing it was in my youth--didn't sound bad...

[Griffionday]

Vector:

Griffionday, one of your persistent problems is that you play a very safe, pat game.  When I was playing scum against you, it made you look obvtown-- at least when compared with everyone else out there, haha.  Now it's making you look a bit defensive.  I suspect that you're having trouble with worrying about breaking people and hurting their feelings.

Close on my worries, but not quite.  I'm specifically worried about a repeat of last game where a quarter of the players dropped out due to having to read 7+ pages when they just had been gone for a day.  I've cut down on the volume of my posts, trying to compensate in volume.  This has the unfortunate effect of causing my post to take hours to write; at which point I'm to tired to hurt feeling.

Here's something for you: we all signed up to break and be broken.  We can handle it.  Get to cracking heads!  This is why everyone always thinks Tiruin is scum, and why I've been able to use her as scum.  If you let folks' feelings control your play before you hit that "gentleman's agreement" we've talked about, then you will be led around by the nose.

This leads into the other issue I'm having; I find tunneling addicting.  I know that when I start a tunnel I will not easily be able to stop... and I'm no ToonyMan.

I do see some of what you're getting at though, and I'll work on the pressure issue.

Lenglon:

ok then, since you can't get it though your thick skull what I said, let me make this clear.

your attacks are not putting yourself at risk. you have yet to push hard enough on anyone, me, or anyone else, to make yourself look scummy as a side-result. you spoke of excitement of the hunt. there never is excitement to be gained from situations with no risk. no risk, no excitement. the alternative situation you yourself presented, where you would get your excitement, would be being the hunted, the prey, where every action and inaction is a risk in of itself.

And the fact that I've had 8 solid hours of sleep since the weekend has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I'm being boring.

nothing scummy and no real pressure are not opposite. pushing someone hard enough they start to break usually requires making yourself slightly scummy in the process. as I said before, look at vector's push against me.

Yes they are.  If someone is not using real pressure then that is a scum tell: obviously they don't care about their vote.  And in case you hadn't noticed I disagree that Vector's pressure on you early game paints her as scum; why do you seem to think it did?

and of COURSE i'm focusing harder on the negative cases. my goal is to locate scum, not to blind myself to the potential for someone to not be town. Positive cases matter a hell of a lot more when there's fewer players. earlygame like this you arn't going to be able to find scum by process of elimination, so why are you wasting time and generating "noise" even bothering to make them in the first place? save it for when it matters if you're so worried about "noise" generation.

You're presupposing a LOT about what I do with my town cases.  For one thing; why do you think I told them out loud?

Oh and one thing:

vector pressed me hard enough to put herself at risk, shinigami took risks defending me, I'm at risk pretty much no matter what I do at this point, Pup is slightly overextending as well. even Dem is taking more risks than you. the only people who arn't taking risks right now are you, captain, ranger, and cheesecake. of the four of you, you're the most active, and the one who spoke of the thrill of the hunt. hypocrite.

So you're "at risk pretty much no matter what I do at this point"...
You damn yourself with your own words:

the alternative situation you yourself presented, where you would get your excitement, would be being the hunted, the prey, where every action and inaction is a risk in of itself.