Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[notquitethere]

Vector

Everyone
[Think about this carefully. If I'm scum, where's my scum team to make an alternative case? Look at the votes-- they're evenly spread except for on me. I'm willing to bet that this pattern has never been seen on a day 1 scum lynch before. All it takes for evil to prevail is you all doing nothing.

This is a bag of WIFOM horseshit.  Can you honestly do nothing better for yourself?

[OK. I know I'm the only person on this subforum that thinks voting patterns are informative. Ignore that part if it doesn't gel with you. I can see where your coming from in that if I genuinely was scum then this is the sort of argument I might make. It's frustrating for me as I know you're all on track for a mislynch and I'm pretty desperate that we avoid this, but I realise that my ways of defending myself often backfire.]

[Lenglon]

NQT: you didn't directly address my accusation in your response, but I'm actually pretty satisfied with your indirect answer, feel free to expound further on the subject, but I don't intend to vote you for it at this time.

ZU: most of your case on Okami doesn't seem that compelling to me, and I disagree with you on some of the general mafia theory you were discussing with Okami. you might want to try to streamline your case pretty signifigantly. however, one part of your case does hit me as being well-founded...

ONR:

notquitethere - Rolefishing already?  I'll bite.  I am Colin Fleury, Apprentice Cooper.  So, why exactly do you want this information, Witch?  You need it for your spells and rituals?

There are three separate threads here that you are muddling together.
First:  The idea that everyone should soft-claim name and profession.
I agree with this.  I believe it is a pro-town move, since, as Toaster said, we're likely to have a town flavor cop, and it forces scum to either stand out as dissenters, lie, or give up some of their information.
Second:  NQT claiming, and calling out everyone to claim in his first post.
I find this to be potentially scummy, and he still hasn't given me a satisfactory explanation for why he thinks what he did was pro-town.  I would have preferred holding off on the soft-claim until the majority of the town was behind it, in order to maximize the pressure on scum to go along with it.
Third:  My choice to soft-claim at the same time as I called out NQT.
This was damage control.  The only way a soft-claim has power as a potential weapon against scum is through pressure from a united town.  NQT hurt that potential power by claiming so early.  I threw my own weight behind it in order to restore some of its strength, hopefully start a snowball effect, and to try to curtail the inevitable arguments against soft-claiming, which scum could easily hide behind if they needed to.

What he did in the first post does not match with his explanations. Firstly he said "rolefishing" in the post 1 but something else in post 2. Also his claim that he tried to do damage control by throwing his own weight behind, yet he described it as "rolefishing" as well as hinting that it might be needed for witches which doesn't seem to support his cause.

this particular accusation by ZU seems to hold signifigant merit to me Okami, please address it well.

Ottofar: Tick tock, you going do something? you're lurking mighty hard.

[Vector]

[OK. I know I'm the only person on this subforum that thinks voting patterns are informative. Ignore that part if it doesn't gel with you. I can see where your coming from in that if I genuinely was scum then this is the sort of argument I might make. It's frustrating for me as I know you're all on track for a mislynch and I'm pretty desperate that we avoid this, but I realise that my ways of defending myself often backfire.]

. . . Okay, this makes sense, and I think your other points make sense, too.  I look forward to hearing more.

[notquitethere]

Everyone
[Also, are you going to trust the lynch to the two most lurkiest players in the game?

Behold:

TIRUIN: 2 posts. Last posted: 33 hours ago
OTTOFAR: 3 posts. Last posted: 41 hours ago

Dariush isn't amazing:

DARIUSH: 5 posts. Last posted: 22 hours ago

Toaster is OK:

TOASTER: 8 posts. Last posted 17 hours ago

That compares to:
Vector: 31 posts. Last posted 1 hour ago.
Lenglon: 28 posts. Last posted 1 hour ago.
NQT: 13 posts. Last posted: Now

ZU: 10 posts. Last posted 5 hours ago.
ToonyMan: 9 posts. Last posted 13 hours ago.
Leafsnail: 7 posts. Last posted 35 hours ago [!}
Okami No Rei: 7 posts. Last posted 9 hours ago.

Deathsword: 5 posts. Last posted 5 hours ago . HAS NEVER VOTED.
griffinpup: 4 posts. Last posted 30 hours ago. THIRD WORST LURKER.

Source: ZU's lurker tracker. True at 8.40pm GMT.

Deathsword
[Stop lurking and use your vote.]

griffinpup
[I remember you contributing a lot more to games when playing as town. Why so lurky?]

Lenglon
[To expand a bit more: I didn't mean to suggest I always play like this as town and therefore you should think me town. That wouldn't be a very convincing argument. I've played very proactively as scum and third-party before (Mafia and Masons, Toon Mafia come to mind) as well as town (Magic Mafia, all three of the BMs I've played in). You picked me out as a spy in Revolution so utterly because I wasn't even trying. Really, I was looking forward to playing Revolution as a rebel again and finally getting to use the logical analysis and lessons I learned in the first one to hunt scum in the second one. I was bitterly disappointed when I rolled spy in Revolution 2 and even more annoyed when all three of us spies made mistakes that I knew I would have spotted as a rebel.]

[Dariush]

I'm actively inviting him to claim it if he is third-party, and I figure him claiming now, when there's little to no pressure, and when simply and directly asked about it, would be about as sympathetic of a time as he could reasonably ask for.

Your naivete is cute, if misplaced.

You really think OMGUS is a good scum tell any more?  I thought that one was out of favor for good.

I did specify it was the icing. OMGUS alone wouldn't have caused me to shift my vote but that was just the last scumtell in a long string of them.

So what did make ZU scummier than NQT?

Let me illustrate with this nifty-ass chart.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

ZU tunneled from his second post in the game (which came before I even saw the thread) and was pretty tame since then. NQT began with his usual annoying cretin persona and gradually evolved into scummy annoying cretin one by dropping heaps of scumtells since then (the first of which, such as fakeclaim WIFOM, weren't significant enough alone to push him over ZU).

[Lenglon]

Lenglon chuckles
"well NQT, I suppose that's fair. and it gave me a decent laugh too. thank you for the direct explanation."

I'd like to point out that post counts don't reflect activity perfectly. for example, at least in my eyes, Tiruin only has one post (since her first one had zero content) and yet her one post has more in it than Ottofar's three, so I consider Ottofar the worse offender for lurking.

I would like to request a Lynch All Lurkers policy-lynch on Ottofar. the last time he did any scumhunting was his first post of the game. I do not want to have a BM XL situation where the scum sit back, lurk, and watch the town tear itself apart.

Dariush: you said NQT dropped many minor scumtells over time, could you list and link them for me?

[notquitethere]

Dariush
[Are you actually going to respond to my complete refutation of your case? To whit:

1. Your accusation that I was lazily pretending to scum hunt is untenable:

We were almost by day's end if the extension hadn't passed, these people had votes that weren't lynching votes. We need to know whether people's cases make a lick of sense or whether they're coasting. How is questioning people's cases a lazy imitation of scumhunting?

2. Merely voting for someone who has also voted for you is not an OMGUS:

Also, here you go again throwing around mafia jargon like it's going out of fashion. Since when is voting someone for a hypocritical vote an 'OMGUS'? In case you didn't know, there are sometimes legitimate reasons to vote for someone who has also voted for you.

You accuse me of lazily pretending to scum hunt, while at the same time you are unable to defend your own paltry attempts. So I repeat again:

Make a real case.

(Not that I actually expect you to shift your vote: you can't scum hunt for toffee and now I've questioned your inviolable right to steamroll and bluster instead of making reasonable arguments, you'll probably try to lynch me out of spite.)

How do you feel about sharing a case with arch-lurkers Tiruin and Ottofar? Do you feel their powers of perception are so sharp that they can make accurate cases without actually needing to play the game?]

[notquitethere]

Lenglon

I'd like to point out that post counts don't reflect activity perfectly. for example, at least in my eyes, Tiruin only has one post (since her first one had zero content) and yet her one post has more in it than Ottofar's three, so I consider Ottofar the worse offender for lurking.

"Exactement, Monsieur Coullart."

[lordnincompoop]

Tiruin has been prodded.

I would also like to point out that you have, potentially, another six days through extensions.

[Tiruin]

Tiruin has been prodded a second time.

I would also like to point out that you have, potentially, another six days through extensions.

Err, not exactly prodded..this WoT takes time to make (2 hours..) Posting it soon enough..

[Tiruin]

Everyone
[Also, are you going to trust the lynch to the two most lurkiest players in the game?

Behold:

TIRUIN: 2 posts. Last posted: 33 hours ago
OTTOFAR: 3 posts. Last posted: 41 hours ago

Where lurk = offline due to timezones and me regaining my sleep debt?

Pretty much. Though..Mostly my fault. Bad choice to have left the laptop on in the past day. >_>

Unvote.

How do you view Lurking, by the way, NQT? Compared to the cases given and taken, lurkers seem the best D1 lynch?

Lenglon

NQT: you have been more active here than you were in the revolution, and greatly changed your style and attitude, why?

[With Revolution, the game was in the bag and as a spy I wasn't really that bothered in making the effort to uncover spies. Here though I'm engaged with the game, I want to root out the witches and I know I have to pay attention if we have a hope of winning this thing.]

I'm curious then. This feels more like a subtle diversion from the 'change in style and attitude' query. Anyone can say they want to root out the witches//pay attention--something connected to your playstyle in previous games.

Point taken though, your attention as you believe should be placed where in the start? I see your point now in asking the roles/profession, however what would your reaction be if a player was lying?

In the situation of the player admitting to the lie or being caught out, will there be any difference?


[spoiler@Toaster/Toonyman's prod on my prod on NQT]

Tiruin:

NQT

"Bonjour everyone! My name is Katherine Boulengier and I am a journeyman carpenter, new to this ville. Alors! It is most effroyable to be quarantined like so, and our best hope is to find zese mauvais witches as rapidly as possible. To facilitate zis, I suggest we all share our names and professions."

"Alright, how is sharing one's identity even going to help here? Or possibly track who is a witch or not? If these things were such, then the inquisition would be easily finding them by now. Unless it is the inquisition, which I doubt.

"Still. My name is Gillette Doulze, an aid to my father's inn. I am not from this town, but on errands from my father and sternly advised by my mother. Local marketplace groceries and such. This seems to be a very strange point you're making. Meaning that you didn't continue on this point you made from earlier."

Now, earlier I said I was suspicious about the claims, aye? Here's my suspicion. While this does avert the notion of people not knowing each other (and on the notion of being a common point given the idea that scum only know alignment difference and all that), this is strange in itself in asking the name and profession and connecting it with directly finding witches.

What would you hope to gain other than knowing our name and probable profession?

I find it odd that you vote NQT for asking for claims then immediately proceed to claiming yourself anyway.  Why is asking for it scummy when you're willing to do it anyway?

Toaster is right here, you did what Okami did a few days ago and it still bothers me to contradict yourself like that.  I think in Okami's case he said soft-claiming is the right way to go (as a bunch of people have agreed, like Dariush and Toaster and me), but NQT's action to claim and then tell everybody else that they should claim was a bit forceful and leads to suspicion.

[/spoiler]
*Ahem*
Let me clarify. My vote was a pressure vote--something I usually do at the start of the game or within my first posts so I can start building up along the way.

I find it odd that you vote NQT for asking for claims then immediately proceed to claiming yourself anyway. Why is asking for it scummy when you're willing to do it anyway?

Toaster is right here, you did what Okami did a few days ago and it still bothers me to contradict yourself like that.

I said suspicion, which generally pokes at the intention and doesn't outright announce it as scummy. It could either be a backroom motive, or some quirk in his intention. My reply would've been 'I'm waiting on NQT's answer, then I'll explain'.

What I was thinking at the time was what NQT himself stated--matching up roles and probable events later on, but his reply was the crucial part of it.

The minutiae of the setting are integral to this set up. The chief point of this game is that each player embodies a unique and distinct role. Town ought to tell the truth about their name and profession, as if they are found to be lying about this simple information, then we have grounds for suspicion.

Unique and distinct role, despite some players claiming differing roles and mundane stories.

Also, if there'd be any question on why I'm repeating (or looking like I'm repeating; I tend to go on my own reads and ask about them during the time..time which I didn't have.).


Vector: Up till recent time, I note your duel with Lenglon--what do you exactly see with her motives and/or intentions? It isn't exactly clear on what you're forwarding,

I apologized because I knew several of you wouldn't understand my view on this.

Really?  No one is making anyone RP, so I'm not sure who or what you're worried about.

As far as I can see what she meant, it was directed at this. Her claim -- "won't understand my view on this"

. I've decided to be me. (and you have no idea how much time i've wasted trying to figure out how to stay in character and failing at it - seriously, this post alone has taken me over two hours of write-rewrite-rerewrite-rererewrite-rerererewrite, where I tried over and over to stay in character without becoming something that I don't want to, and failing at it every. single. time.)

Which came to me as her just coming to terms with her role, and character as well as laying down notes on who (s)he currently is. A note for further perusal later on.

However I'm confused. By recent posts, it's mostly all angled towards her. I sense you're trying to scope her out: Her intention or motive and why she's posting like such? What has made her such a prominent target for you?


NQT along with the questions stated above, I've to ask this.

Vector

Everyone
[Think about this carefully. If I'm scum, where's my scum team to make an alternative case? Look at the votes-- they're evenly spread except for on me. I'm willing to bet that this pattern has never been seen on a day 1 scum lynch before. All it takes for evil to prevail is you all doing nothing.

This is a bag of WIFOM horseshit.  Can you honestly do nothing better for yourself?

[OK. I know I'm the only person on this subforum that thinks voting patterns are informative. Ignore that part if it doesn't gel with you. I can see where your coming from in that if I genuinely was scum then this is the sort of argument I might make. It's frustrating for me as I know you're all on track for a mislynch and I'm pretty desperate that we avoid this, but I realise that my ways of defending myself often backfire.]

Picking up on this tangent, why did you use the ol' "If I'm x, why is there y to denounce what is happening.." and stuff.

You prod at vote patterns. Something I note you did before, yet I'm not relying on that to provide pertinent evidence to the game. The only way vote patterns would be used is if, in my opinion:
> Scum really really want to see this person lynched and are picking/nitpicking on their mistakes.
> The person has committed an error, and scum are pushing it along the line, riding on the mistake to seem townish enough.

What I don't see is your defense on the point. You have good points, I'll give you that, but your first sentence starts with that sort of notion?

I mean you did type out what you saw on the matters posted about you in the second part. That's all well and good, but then you go along a supervisory role.

3. Toaster seemed to be calling me out as 3rd party for being out of town when he was out of town, so damn right I was indignant. On a reread it seems more to have been a persistent misreading of one another's intentions.

What Toaster said was a query with a vote.
Your answer was ...nebulous, but given the answer to that type of question, that's much expected.

His answer is something you didn't follow up on. Why?

Town, it's your job to critically examine the votes against the Day 1 lynch lead. Do it.

Also, why do you need to tell this?

Tiruin
[I don't care if your busy, you've done nothing of value all game. Replace out if you don't have time. Don't just bandwagon then disappear. That's scummy whichever way you swing it.]

*When I say I'm busy, I don't use the lurky-lazy attitude. That's just wrong, but a huge err on my part for not announcing how hectic my time is spaced out.*
And..bandwagon? Already? That's something to come by rather than poke at what the context is.

Toaster
So I've seen what parts you're voting NQT for-is it worth it, though? Perceived deflection, which 'sorta' came off as the same note as a feeling more than a fact is the best case you could put against him?

For..the case on being or not being a third-party?

Your vote sticks on him without further clarification and a conclusion with a weak foundation.

Your next posts follow it up, but not in a way a townie usually does it. What I see you're doing is negative communication.

Backhanding his post, and inflating...what. Something not even within the idea of malevolent intent. Your conclusion is pretty much laughable, given how you wasted a post just giving him a retort when his concern is placed in the right part.

What's up there?

[lordnincompoop]

Ottofar has been prodded.

Not sure it'll do any good, though, since he hasn't been online for two days.

Tiruin has been prodded.

Err, not exactly prodded..this WoT takes time to make (2 hours..) Posting it soon enough..

Well, kinda.

[Tiruin]

Lenglon

I'd like to point out that post counts don't reflect activity perfectly. for example, at least in my eyes, Tiruin only has one post (since her first one had zero content) and yet her one post has more in it than Ottofar's three, so I consider Ottofar the worse offender for lurking.

"Exactement, Monsieur Coullart."

Tiruin punches NQT and brings up a smiling, heavily mustached man.

"He's your translator. Stop speaking french-ish english. Thank you."

Tiruin: I was wondering if everyone here had some form of motivation to be enthusiastic in the witch hunt, similar to my own. is that the case?

Oh you don't know how much I loathed RL stuff because of the delays I get to post in Mafia >_>

But..err, I believe it varies from person to person. Motivation is hardly sensed over the internet, but a common observation states that it usually reflects in how the person words their post, the context of where they're coming from, and how they proceed against or towards a conclusion.

...Or were you asking on flavor? I've my own motivation, in that manner, but I'm withholding it for now because it's quite...confusing if I said it, and I'm trying to piece it together myself. But I'm quite sure I'm pretty enthusiastic. Enthusiastic to get these bloody plagues and diseases and everything hurting the people all backed up and shooed away, that is.

What I expect are some minor deviations for town, stuff regarding special/unique stuff for third-parties (or some kind of malevolent intent for SKs, and stuff about 'I just want to get out' for survivors--which would be weird given the premise of 'Lockdown' by the papal forces and for the Witches to..kill or outnumber townies and third-party alignments against them.)

However I'm pretty sure that given the context of a Viscount being attacked, the whole city under a huge force of men, and points on witches numbering that few with the populace being corralled like animals (submission via torture..burning by the stake..), that there are other threats than witches out there.

ANYWAY

Query to you:

-snip snip scissors-

I can understand the point of not having an evident case on people, and the notion of you starting (or making it obvious) with the questions there, however I've to ask Why Ottofar? What stands out in him that warrants your suspicion?

How did you see his response as?

ToonyMan: "I suppose you know what you whispered to one of your men before he rode off, right?"

Anyway. You voted Vector for active lurking. What was in her context that deserved that vote?

What do you see in lurkers that gets them a vote? What do you see in lurkers in general?

Well, kinda.

I deserved the assertive prod (and general assertivity from everyone) though, this is an awesome game and I was a liability to everyone. :/

Sorry once again..

[notquitethere]

Tiruin
[Thanks for finally posting some more content. Good to have you back.]

How do you view Lurking, by the way, NQT? Compared to the cases given and taken, lurkers seem the best D1 lynch?

[Absence from the game can be justified in part if a player is very busy, but if they don't post content when they post (as in the case of Okami's last two posts) then they begin to present themselves as a stronger case for a lynch. Scum win when they are ignored by town.]

Point taken though, your attention as you believe should be placed where in the start? I see your point now in asking the roles/profession, however what would your reaction be if a player was lying?

In the situation of the player admitting to the lie or being caught out, will there be any difference?

[My attention was on people's names and professions at the start of the game, and now it is on bogus cases players have tried to make. If a player was lying they'd need a damn good explanation. If they pre-emptively admitted to lying they'd be given more lee-way, but they'd need a good excuse. Did you lie regarding your name or profession?]

Picking up on this tangent, why did you use the ol' "If I'm x, why is there y to denounce what is happening.." and stuff.

You prod at vote patterns. Something I note you did before, yet I'm not relying on that to provide pertinent evidence to the game. The only way vote patterns would be used is if, in my opinion:
> Scum really really want to see this person lynched and are picking/nitpicking on their mistakes.
> The person has committed an error, and scum are pushing it along the line, riding on the mistake to seem townish enough.

What I don't see is your defense on the point. You have good points, I'll give you that, but your first sentence starts with that sort of notion?

[As far as convincing you lot, my point about the voting patterns was ill-judged. Still, you should know my views by now on the matter: I firmly believe we can learn a lot by looking at the overall patterns of voting. Isn't it usually the case that when scum are lynched on day 1 they also turn out to have been attempting an alternative lynch candidate? Anyway, this wasn't really integral to main point so if you are unconvinced then you may safely ignore this. Maybe one day I'll look over a few dozen games and show whether my vote-analysis theories have merit.]

I mean you did type out what you saw on the matters posted about you in the second part. His answer is something you didn't follow up on. Why?

[I followed it up in my very next post. I'm not sure how you missed that.]

Town, it's your job to critically examine the votes against the Day 1 lynch lead. Do it.

[Also, why do you need to tell this?

[Because town isn't doing that and that's what they should be doing at this point. If your going to stand by and let someone be lynched by less than a 3rd of the town then you probably should be sure the person that's being lynched is actually scummy. Do you disagree?]

And..bandwagon? Already? That's something to come by rather than poke at what the context is.

[I guess you weren't paying attention at the time, but you were the third player in a row to vote for me with not a whole lot of time left until the end of the day. Then you promptly disappeared again, which if you hadn't have reappeared definitely would have been bandwagoning.

What's your view on lurkers Ottofar, Deathsword and griffinpup?]

[Tiruin]

I mean you did type out what you saw on the matters posted about you in the second part. His answer is something you didn't follow up on. Why?

[I followed it up in my very next post. I'm not sure how you missed that.]

...I did miss that. Oops.

[Did you lie regarding your name or profession?]

Nope. Though my profession expounds a lot more on my work, it's what I am--an aide.

[What's your view on lurkers Ottofar, Deathsword and griffinpup?]

Ottofar is..well, being Ottofar. From my very limited experience with him, he does that. >__> Sometimes, he lurks, and then brings content.

..This time he has content from him, BUT his record of being online comes up with it. He was prodded. He has questions, albeit somewhat strange questions yet it's too early to judge whether they were run-off ones or somethings else.

...His three posts. Leave much to be desired.

Deathsword has the gist of the game. He's got good points and some quirks, and dislikes your accent, as well as being busy. He messed up a quotebox because the original message is from ZU.

...Which didn't have his [/montypython] reference tag. I'm putting this off as a product of busy-ness, stress and nostalgia. Still, quite weird.

Deathsword: Why issue a joke as your only query to a person?

Griffinpup i-

Last Active:
    August 08, 2013, 01:29:06 pm
Time now: August 09, 2013, 08:34:15 am

Last post. He's lurking?

Well anyway, compared to the other two, he's doing quite well. Haven't read deeper on him though.

Town, it's your job to critically examine the votes against the Day 1 lynch lead. Do it.

[Also, why do you need to tell this?

[Because town isn't doing that and that's what they should be doing at this point. If your going to stand by and let someone be lynched by less than a 3rd of the town then you probably should be sure the person that's being lynched is actually scummy. Do you disagree?]

I disagree on the point that we need to be told what we need to do. It's strange in that context, as of course you see yourself as innocent--something which everyone does to evade a lynch, in general--but in this case..it's not coming off as suspicious to me.

Anyway, I do disagree on the critically examine part. If it were such, then those who have voted you are really playing hangman instead of Mafia: hit the loosest link and ride it till the lynch. Something which I'm looking into at the moment. The actual scummy part? That's where 90% of my disagreement comes from. People have differing points of view and in that notion it is up for the suspect to clarify his point so as to not go into miscommunication. Like that one point I said: Vote patterns? This early? It's far too nebulous to be believable, as in every vote I'm checking, they're either pressure votes, continuous votes-waiting-for-answers, or I-suspect-you-and-what-are-you-doing votes.

On whether they are malevolent in context, I'm still checking it up. But that thing on vote patterns was suspicious as you weren't poking at what was in the votes themselves, just where they were placed and giving it a general shove up the logic train.

Why did you ask me if I disagree? Why state those three people and denote them as lurkers and my opinion of them?