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[Karkov]

You guys up for some lore discussion? I've been pondering the story, and there's a couple of things that elude me.

Warning, major spoilers.
-spoiler snip-

Alright, I am the master of my own time now.

Spoiler: Possible Lore Explanations, spoilery spoilers. (click to show/hide)

Why does vendrick's soul have the same icon as a lord soul? Should he not have a dark soul, being a man? He did absorb the four lord souls as the cursed undead, but since those four are up and about again at the time of the story, one would assume he no longer holds any such lord souls.

First of all, I'm not sure there are any "Lord Souls" in this game.  There are Great souls, definitely, but no "Lord" souls.  From my understanding, the four who had these souls before you wrenched them from their lifeless bodies were extremely old and extremely powerful, but not actually unique like the Lord Souls were.  Think of them as an undead (or otherwise) that had grown extremely powerful and extremely large over time, but not by the graces of a deity, but solely through tenacity.  I'm almost certain that's what those souls entail.  Vendrick's soul was large itself and powerful itself because he had amassed a large amount of souls and had become extremely powerful in his own right.

--snip--

Just to throw my $0.02 into this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There are Lord Souls. Beat each of the great soul bosses in NG+, and you receive what is obviously the age-old remnant of a Lord Soul.

Lost Sinner drops "Old Witch's Soul". Given that the Lost Sinner's crime was attempting to rekindle the first flame, I can't see this as anything less than relevant. Perhaps the Lost Sinner was inspired to attempt rekindling the flame because she found this soul?

The Rotten drops "Old Dead One's Soul". Yep, Nito's soul is still around and kicking, and still in full control of death.

Old Iron King drops the "Old King Soul". This would be Lord Gwyn's soul (made clear by the spell you craft with it directly referencing the God of Sun).

The Duke's Dear Freja drops the "Old Paledrake's Soul". The connection here is far more tenuous (though it's obviously Seath's soul, given it creates the Moonlight Greatsword).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

While I understand what you mean and all, here's why I didn't actually factor in those souls to the "Lord Souls" theory.

It's NG+.

It's exactly that reason why I factor them in.  The story of the game has already been told, that was NG.  Anything else that's added in NG+ (in my opinion) is added in to either increase the difficulty (red phantoms everywhere), or open up a bunch of paths to unique items for the players to use in their PvP experience (MLGS, other large souls).  The bosses don't drop those regularly, it doesn't make sense to put them in the lore (to me) because the game's story has already been told. 

If you just staple everything together from a NG standpoint, and not from NG+'s standpoint, my way makes more sense.  Also, the Emerald Herald never tells you to seek the "Four Lord Souls," she says to "seek stronger, greater souls."  If you go to the Shrine of Winter with 1 million soul memory on NG, it'll open for you.  No matter how many Great Souls you actually have at the time.  You never needed those Great Souls to beat the game, it was only to make you strong enough to be the successor to the Throne of Want.

EDIT:

Now knowing about the soul memory thing, I wish the ones you loose to death didn't count. I just lost 12,000 due to clipping through the dock at the Wharf, and now I know I'll always be at least 12,000 behind for pvp matchups.

Yeah, lost souls are always a tragedy.  It'll be fine though, in the long run those 12,000 souls don't mean too much, man.  You'll find plenty more.

[nenjin]

Even though it'd be totally counter, mechanically, to what Dark Souls focuses on, I really wish I could bank all these extra souls until a time I was ready to spend them.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The problem is that keeping track of any of the Lord Souls is difficult due to the fact that they can be split, and while they seem to have a tendency to coalesce back to their original forms we've never really had a situation outside of the First Age where the four were united. Gwyn split the Light Soul to empower Seath and the Four Kings, the Witch split the Life Soul when she tried to make it into a Second Flame and created demons, and the Dark Soul is so divided that it gave birth to the Abyss and all humanity. Only the Death Soul seems to have not been divided.

The interesting thing here is Seath's soul. He, unlike all the others, took but a fragment of the Life Soul and used it to become Immortal. As in, Dragon Immortal. Come on, did you really think the guy obsessed with never dying would bank everything on a single crystal? No, Seath is the closest thing to a Big Bad that Dark Souls has, because he alone has used the power of Souls to persist throughout the ages. How many times did the cycle run through between Lordran and Drangleic? Nobody can know, but Seath survived through it all in one form or another, hanging onto his identity in a way that none of the other Lord Soul holders were able to. He even appears to have obtained a perfected body at some point, what with the giant petrified dragon corpse buried in Brightstone Cove. And he doesn't even have the whole Light Soul, as demonstrated by Old Iron King being a separate entity holding Gwyn's share of it.

[Jelle]

You guys up for some lore discussion? I've been pondering the story, and there's a couple of things that elude me.

Warning, major spoilers.
-spoiler snip-

Alright, I am the master of my own time now.

Spoiler: Possible Lore Explanations, spoilery spoilers. (click to show/hide)

Why does vendrick's soul have the same icon as a lord soul? Should he not have a dark soul, being a man? He did absorb the four lord souls as the cursed undead, but since those four are up and about again at the time of the story, one would assume he no longer holds any such lord souls.

First of all, I'm not sure there are any "Lord Souls" in this game.  There are Great souls, definitely, but no "Lord" souls.  From my understanding, the four who had these souls before you wrenched them from their lifeless bodies were extremely old and extremely powerful, but not actually unique like the Lord Souls were.  Think of them as an undead (or otherwise) that had grown extremely powerful and extremely large over time, but not by the graces of a deity, but solely through tenacity.  I'm almost certain that's what those souls entail.  Vendrick's soul was large itself and powerful itself because he had amassed a large amount of souls and had become extremely powerful in his own right.

--snip--

Just to throw my $0.02 into this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There are Lord Souls. Beat each of the great soul bosses in NG+, and you receive what is obviously the age-old remnant of a Lord Soul.

Lost Sinner drops "Old Witch's Soul". Given that the Lost Sinner's crime was attempting to rekindle the first flame, I can't see this as anything less than relevant. Perhaps the Lost Sinner was inspired to attempt rekindling the flame because she found this soul?

The Rotten drops "Old Dead One's Soul". Yep, Nito's soul is still around and kicking, and still in full control of death.

Old Iron King drops the "Old King Soul". This would be Lord Gwyn's soul (made clear by the spell you craft with it directly referencing the God of Sun).

The Duke's Dear Freja drops the "Old Paledrake's Soul". The connection here is far more tenuous (though it's obviously Seath's soul, given it creates the Moonlight Greatsword).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The connection is also very obvious when listening to shalquoir the cat about the four lord souls. iirc when talking about the tseldora duke she goes on about how he reminds her of a great pale beast in ages past who also coveted what he did not have and how it drove him mad. The other three have similar references, like her likening the old iron king to an old vainglorious liar who threw himself in the flame long ago.

By the way what's the opinion on drangleic being on the same land lordran once stood? I can't picture heide is anything but the sunken ruins of anor londo, especially with the whole way of the blue and old dragonslayer thing. The lands geography look complete different though, unless somehow all the rest of what was once lordran was also submerged there must have been immense changes in the land. Perhaps the cycle somehow also greatly alters the land? Or perhaps the subsiding of the dark and the vast underground caverns it made (darkdiver mentions only a few of these dark places only remain), and the destruction of ash lake wich seemingly held up the land above, caused a great collapse and reformed the land above?

Oh also the reason I assume the dead ancient dragon we see is the covenant leader guy, and that the place is ash lake is the following. For one  the description of the soul "Soul of the great ancient dragon that stands magnificently, deep within the shrine. This powerful being stands and waits, for whoever may visit him." wich fits his description, also the sword you make out the soul is very similar to the one you got by cutting of its tail (power attack that unleashes a force in a line) and the weapons description implies it is an ancient stone dragon "A curved greatsword forged from the soul of the Ancient Dragon. In the Age of the Ancients, the world was unformed, shrouded by fog. A land of grey crags, archtrees, and everlasting dragons."

[612DwarfAvenue]

Spoiler: Concerning Drangleic's location (click to show/hide)

The Lingering Dragoncrest ring's description all but confirms that Drangleic used to be Vinheim, not Lordran.

Spoiler: As for the Dragon (click to show/hide)

Bear in mind that the Everlasting Dragon from DkS1 looked very different. Smaller head, four wings, etc. etc.. As such, i'd say the Ancient Dragon you get the memory from is younger than the Everlasting Dragons, closer to the modern Drakes than the old Dragons.

Spoiler: At Karkov (click to show/hide)

The fact it's NG+ doesn't automatically throw out the new stuff. How many RPG's and the like have you played where you managed to get every single tidbit of story in one playthrough? It's not that NG+ is telling the same story again, rather NG didn't give you the full story the first time around, whereas with NG+ it is. This time, it's making it clear what the souls were. After all, Manus's soul reformed into Nashandra, it's not a stretch to think the Lord souls also reformed.

[WillowLuman]

Spoiler: Didn't read the other stuff, but concerning dragons (click to show/hide)

Bear in mind the the Dragon covenant in the first one was trying to turn people into dragons. That was ages ago, so probably some of those who ascended would be ancient by the time of DS2.

[612DwarfAvenue]

Spoiler: Didn't read the other stuff, but concerning dragons (click to show/hide)

Bear in mind the the Dragon covenant in the first one was trying to turn people into dragons. That was ages ago, so probably some of those who ascended would be ancient by the time of DS2.

Yeah, that's also a definite possibility.

[WillowLuman]

Is it just me, or is the Dangleic Sword the new BKS? I'm loving this weapon so far.

[612DwarfAvenue]

Is it just me, or is the Dangleic Sword the new BKS? I'm loving this weapon so far.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Funnily enough, you can find the Black Knight Greatsword and Greataxe in the game. Sadly, they only use the generic moveset, not the uppercut of awesomeness they had in DkS1.

[WillowLuman]

Spoiler: Black Knight Stuff (click to show/hide)

I found the halberd in the place with the lion-men back on the xbox. BK UGS is cool and all but the normal greatsword sized BKS will always be my favorite.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Spoiler: Didn't read the other stuff, but concerning dragons (click to show/hide)

Bear in mind the the Dragon covenant in the first one was trying to turn people into dragons. That was ages ago, so probably some of those who ascended would be ancient by the time of DS2.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As I recall, there was at some point a confirmation that the Dragon Covenant is barking up the wrong tree, and that becoming a dragon is impossible.

[Jelle]

Spoiler: Concerning Drangleic's location (click to show/hide)

The Lingering Dragoncrest ring's description all but confirms that Drangleic used to be Vinheim, not Lordran.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It certainly heavily suggests it, but it is not certain. It's fair to say those rings were used in vinheim, but it's also not incorrect to say it was used in lordran; by the cursed undead, perhaps the two sorcerers and who knows who else. It depends on if you interpret 'this ring' as the type of ring, or that ring in particular wich may be the same our chosen undead once held. Also many kingdoms rose and fell, it's entirely possible another kingdom once stood where lordran stood before it where such rings were also widely used.

Moslty drangleic once being vinheim doesn't make sense to me because of the nature of the cursed undead. The undead are drawn, without knowing why, like moths to the flame to the place to link the fire. This would mean that somehow at some point the first flame would have had to have been moved to where vinheim once was, wich seems unlikely. The presense of the lord souls all in that particular place also seems odd if it weren't lordran in the past.

Actually about the lord souls, scrap my earlier thoughts. The icon of the actual lord souls and the regular powerful souls is slightly different. So I guess all those big non lord souls are just really large souls.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As I recall, there was at some point a confirmation that the Dragon Covenant is barking up the wrong tree, and that becoming a dragon is impossible.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That's really interesting, hadn't heard of that before. Anywhere I can find out more about this?

On another note, I'm curious what everyone's favorite boss fight is.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

For me it's a close tie between ornstein (or old dragonslayer if you prefer) and the lost sinner. Ornstein is a little weaksauce without his buddy, but he's still my favorite.

Including the previous game I should say I don't think they come close to the great boss fights in the abysswalker dlc, both artorias and kalameet were glorious fights.

[Karkov]

Spoiler: Didn't read the other stuff, but concerning dragons (click to show/hide)

Bear in mind the the Dragon covenant in the first one was trying to turn people into dragons. That was ages ago, so probably some of those who ascended would be ancient by the time of DS2.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As I recall, there was at some point a confirmation that the Dragon Covenant is barking up the wrong tree, and that becoming a dragon is impossible.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Except that Lord Aldia actually managed to do that, and became the Ancient Dragon you find at the Shrine.  He used the Giant's corpses that you find in his manor, along with some extremely ancient magic, and made himself into the Ancient Dragon that you talk to.  He's also using magic to force the other dragon's under his command.  Aldia is a pretty cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything.

(Sources on this one is that Nashandra talks about the dragon at the shrine being a sham, the Giant corpses in Aldia manor and the fact that the Ancient Dragon drops a Giant Soul on death, the bone shield's description:

The peculiar figure known as Lord Aldia kept Giants in his manor, and attempted to recreate a dragon, but after some time, was not heard from again.

And the Guardian Dragon's Soul:

Do the dragons watch over the land of their own will, or are they in the grip of one of Aldia's spells?

Also the fact that you gain the Ancient Dragon's soul from a memory found in the Writhing Ruins using magic from the Ancient Dragon (Aldia) to enter it.)

EDIT:  Fixed a typo

[WillowLuman]

Gah, I'm at the Three Musketeers again. And they're even more frustrating when I don't have any spells to shoot them with. I thought summoned help would make them easier, but all the other players I summon have been stupid. The first thing EVERYONE did was knock Yahim off then jump down after him, causing the other 2 to go straight for me and the NPC phantom back upstairs.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Except that Lord Aldia actually managed to do that, and became the Ancient Dragon you find at the Shrine.  He used the Giant's corpses that you find in his manor, along with some extremely ancient magic, and made himself into the Ancient Dragon that you talk to.  He's also using magic to force the other dragon's under his command.  Aldia is a pretty cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything.

(Sources on this one is that Nashandra talks about the dragon at the shrine being a sham, the Giant corpses in Aldia manor and the fact that the Ancient Dragon drops a Giant Soul on death, the bone shield's description:

The peculiar figure known as Lord Aldia kept Giants in his manor, and attempted to recreate a dragon, but after some time, was not heard from again.

And the Guardian Dragon's Soul:

Do the dragons watch over the land of their own will, or are they in the grip of one of Aldia's spells?

Also the fact that you gain the Ancient Dragon's soul from a memory found in the Writhing Ruins using magic from the Ancient Dragon (Aldia) to enter it.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Perhaps it isn't impossible, then, but the Dragon Covenant's method of offering up scales won't make you a dragon.