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[Neonivek]

Except Documentaries... Go in depth

They are about making you understand WHY something is happening, why it is significant, and why it continues and questions like that.

If this is akin to a documentary... its rather lousy.

[Reelya]

Alex Jones makes "documentaries". There is nothing special about that category.

[Phmcw]

Doculentaries are supposed to be impartial, in depth and bring informations.

[Fniff]

And politicians are supposed to be honest and help the people.

[Reelya]

New article from Christina Hoff Sommers about dodgy feminist statistics:
http://time.com/3222543/5-feminist-myths-that-will-not-die/

The first 3 are the most interesting, the first one shows how a random number made up by an activist can become a "true" fact, purely by pushing emotional buttons, get cited even in official UN reports, while all actual known data contradicts it (and has always contradicted it).

The 2nd and 3rd deal with how a misunderstood report can get a figure quoted out of context, which is then cited and blow out of proportion to claim a real problem is literal 1000's of times more common than it really is. If second and the third were actually true, then the USA would literally be more dangerous than Iraq for women.

the last two are familiar territory - wage gap and campus sexual assault figures.

===

Christina Hoff Sommers on the "Ban Bossy" campaign notes that some evidence on the Ban Bossy website, is from a report showing parents of 7th grade girls had higher leadership aspirations for their sons than their daughters, this is presented as clear proof that girls are being shortchanged by their parents. Christina notes, however, that the exact same report shows that parents of 8th and 9th graders favored their daughters leadership aspirations more than sons, using the exact same measurement system, and that statistically there's no meaningful gender difference in how parents treat their kids leadership ambitions. This is almost the definition of "cherry picking" research.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJQM5PZzTg0

In fact, the whole "Ban Bossy" campaign seems to be built on cherry picked data points from reports, and from accepting dubious studies that no-one has managed to replicate as absolute truth.

[Rolepgeek]

What's your point, Reelya?

Are you just wanting to bash on feminists?

I'll acknowledge that Anita makes some really stupid claims in her videos, and after the plaigiarism fiasco, I don't particularly like her. But, I feel that if you try to remember that she isn't an idiot, you might be able to interpret what she's saying in a way that makes sense and can bring some insight. By which I'm mostly referring to the thing with people talking about masculine traits versus feminine traits and praise and reviling and whatnot of which ones. She's not saying 'these are masculine, and people like them, and that's bad, they should like these traits instead'. As far as I can tell(and I'd rather interpret it this way since it actually makes sense and means I can continue to believe she's got some idea of what she's doing), she's saying something more along the lines of 'these traits are typically thought of as masculine, and are liked, and these ones are typically thought of as feminine, and are disliked, and that helps perpetuate sexism'.

Also, I dislike the fact that that source seems to think that if you agree to have sex while under the influence of mind-affecting drugs, it can't be rape because you agreed to it(I understand it's really hard to understand what is and is not rape in such circumstances, and think that it's only really rape if the person they had sex with was taking advantage of their mind-altered state).

Don't forget; the vocal minority is not the whole group. They're simply the loudest. And the people who try to make money, or simply force progress, by taking unsavory routes, tend to be the loudest.

Sidenote: Really, I get disappointed at the bullshit Anita brings up. Command&Conquer is sexist in a few ways(not many, since it's just a strategy game), but the main spy character getting captured and needing rescue isn't really sexist in itself, or even in a group. What is sexist is the general theme of women needing rescue more often than men in similar situations. Eh, that's not exactly how I want to put it, but it's hard to say exactly what I mean here.

[Reelya]

I didn't say anything about Anita. I just wanted to post that new article, and there are no other gender-related threads to do it, nor is it worth starting a new thread, and anywhere else would be a clear topic derail.

Also, I dislike the fact that that source seems to think that if you agree to have sex while under the influence of mind-affecting drugs, it can't be rape because you agreed to it

Fine, but up to 1 in 3 women are self-confessed rapists then, going off similar surveys, because 36% of general population women admit to having used alcohol to obtain sex with a man. In another study, 3.8% of college age men report being subject to unwanted sexual activity due to alcohol per year.

A man being given alcohol by a woman to get him to agree to sex is pretty common according to most surveys. Do we count all of those as female->male rape or not?
http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013/09/04/the-startling-facts-on-female-sexual-aggression/

[penguinofhonor]

You've made a lot of posts similar to that one. I'm sure they could make a decently sized Negative Articles About Feminists thread.

[Rolepgeek]

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, our culture is entirely fucked up in every way regarding rape; that's not a one-way street fucking over women only, that fucks over everyone (although apparently there have been studies that found that quite a lot of men would agree to have sex with basically any woman who was decently attractive that asked them on the street, so uhhhh...I dunno, man). We have a rape culture, and it's fucked up in every way, from victim-blaming to legitimate rape to 'but if they liked it!' to pregnant mothers being able to be harassed further by their rapists to the idea that women can't be rapists to...I mean, it's seriously terrible, and honestly deserves a thread of it's own, I feel it's such a large issue.

[Reelya]

You're saying it's doubtful if men can be raped because they're confessed sluts? The "not rape because she/he was a slut" argument doesn't have any wings.

Idk if I would want a whole thread about it though. I do not hate women. Women are great. I just hate a lot of the politics that surrounds the issues.

[Rolepgeek]

What? No. I'm saying that in terms of the college intoxication part, it gets even more muddled with men since there's a fair chance they would have wanted to anyway(which is probably some small portion of the reason those types of rapes aren't really reported by men).

When mind-affecting stuff gets in the mix, everything gets really complicated and annoying. >.>

[Reelya]

idk, because the survey data is about women who admit they used alcohol to secure sex. we wouldn't be quibbling anywhere near that much if that was men who confessed, the admission would be taken as smoking gun confession of guilt. We should always question ourselves when we look for holes in one set of data whilst refusing to accept someone else looking at the same holes in another set of data, because of which demographic that data covers.

And the survey questions for men were about "unwanted" sex acts. I can't see many guys answering yes to a question about that if they had been totally cool with it.

I can see people choking on their coffee if one were to argue that many of the girls deliberately intoxicated by a man for sexual purposes would have been "up for it anyway". We immediately assume that to be on the "safe side" that the deliberate intoxication itself was the point of blame: it's the mindset, and the attempt to manipulate someone which is suspect, not whether that manipulation was in fact necessary.

[Vector]

I am wondering if those results include "wining and dining." I'm saying this LARGELY because I know multiple men who have confessed rape/Serious Sexual Assault to me, and I know multiple women who have talked about having been raped--probably 2 in the former category and 3 in the latter. These are in my real-life circles, not on Bay12--I mean situations without any kind of condition of anonymity. I also know of one male rape victim and one female rapist or molester (I didn't get the whole story, and we sure as hell don't talk anymore). I also know... two men and a woman who have brought up having fairly serious alcohol issues. What I mean to say is: since most of my friends are men and we tend to have pretty damn intimate conversations, I would expect to have heard about this. Or I'd expect a female friend to have said something. I've heard them say some VERY disturbing things, but none--other than that one woman, who committed her crime while still in elementary school--ever sat down to lunch with me and laughed about a sexual partner "going ballistic" or whatnot like I've had multiple men do.

Seriously, I've been assaulted by... let's see, three women and two men. That's people who have touched me in sexual ways against my permission despite my clearly trying to get them to stop, and doesn't include various harassment (staring at me in class and zipping+unzipping fly, staring at me in class and doing thrusting motions with their fingers, aborted attempts to get their hands under my skirt, etc.). I don't have ANY trouble believing that women rape men by getting them drunk; I know men who have been raped in this way; I have spoken with men about OTHER forms of sexual assault, harassment, and stalking; but I have trouble believing in the sheer volume of it. One in THREE? Are you kidding? I wouldn't believe those results for men, where the usual percentage admitting to rape is something like 5%. The average man, according to the CDC, has six sexual partners in a lifetime; so from that, we'd conclude that the average heterosexual man has been raped TWICE by this one single method, not including the rape rates from other methods.

Listen, I virulently hate rape, so you know... if it's true, then we should sure as hell do something about it. I have a hard time believing it, though.

[Reelya]

You've made a lot of posts similar to that one. I'm sure they could make a decently sized Negative Articles About Feminists thread.

It could be honestly argued that the practice of using dodgy statistics is entirely harmful to the women's rights cause and you're doing them a favor by pointing them out. Christina Hoff Sommers makes a good point: if you don't know the real story and just repeat the "horror story" versions, and are hostile to more accurate data (because lying men), then you have no idea of the actual level of risk, what is most effective to invest your time to protest against, or whether things are in fact getting better or worse.

Like that claim in her article that up to 300,000 underage girls in the USA are kidnapped each year to become sex slaves. This is pure fantasy, actual levels of kidnapping are nowhere near this, not even in the ballpark, no even in the same city as the ballpark, and focusing on this only takes focus off actual problems girls have. Here is an example link with the incorrect data:

"US Kids Being Trafficked At Possible Rate Of 300,000 A Year"
http://survivor-story.com/us-kids-trafficked-at-300000-year/
Such a trade would literally depopulate the USA. That's literally ~10% of the entire birthrate, or 20% of ALL girls. Does anyone believe 20% of all girls born in the USA are trafficked to become sex slaves?

Most of these statistics are repeated by people who have 100% good intentions, but they just haven't done their research or fact-checking. No moral crusade, no matter how justified, excuses sloppy facts.

[Reelya]

> Seriously, I've been assaulted by... let's see, three women and two men.

That's kind of interesting. We need to train everyone in proper personal boundaries.

> The average man, according to the CDC, has six sexual partners in a lifetime;

So, must the average woman. Do the maths. It's physically impossible for the mean number of sex partners to differ between heterosexual men and women. It is possible, but unlikely, for the means to be the same but the median for men to be much more. If there is a difference in median sex partners and men have more, the entire difference needs to be made up with prostitutes or hypothetical "super sluts": a small group women who have vast numbers of sexual partners. And we have to assume these vastly outnumber "players": guys who sleep around a lot. Not impossible, but kinda unlikely.

What we can infer then, is that men over-report relative to women. I say "relative" because everyone could be over-reporting, or everyone could be under-reporting, or men could be over-reporting while women under-report.

All we know is that men report more lifetime sexual partners than women, and that this is a logical impossibility: make a graph with 10 female nodes and 10 male nodes. Draw lines between each man and 6 women. Regardless of how you draw the lines, each woman will have an average of 6 links to a man.