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Author Topic: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'  (Read 313841 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3375 on: August 23, 2014, 06:19:30 pm »

I actually have a book, that I won't fetch right now, that has an interesting perspective.

It however states that a lot of things start off as harmless jokes that sort of spin out of control.

It is very possible we are still in the transition between "harmless jokes" and "Harmful jokes". So that we get both at the same time, with people doing it harmlessly but oblivious to the growing harmfulness and people doing it harmfully and knowing what they are doing.

Mind you I am COMPLETELY guessing because I am lucky enough to be spared the vast majority of the transphobia. So I have no idea how "bad" it is.

And people say being sheltered is a bad thing. *Hugs his sheltered life*
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 04:24:32 am by Neonivek »
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Graknorke

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3376 on: August 24, 2014, 12:18:26 pm »

That pretending to be a woman is the important part here, and not somebody attempting to manipulate/scam people. This points to the underlying entitlement issues men have over women in that "gifts" are assumed to lead to sex or romantic favor. It's pretty manipulative in itself to give people stuff in an attempt to "purchase" access of their body or affection when there isn't a clean line being drawn about what is expected of the situation.
So you're upset with the fact that it works rather than that it was portrayed at all?
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DJ

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3377 on: August 24, 2014, 01:17:17 pm »

TBF bribing people to get something from them is practically hardcoded behavior. Even chimps do it.
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Rolan7

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3378 on: August 24, 2014, 01:46:01 pm »

Quote

The most important thing to note here is that we're not actually using "trap" as a transphobic slur at all. The character who's being called a "trap" is being accused of pretending to be a girl on the internet in order to curry favor with her male co-posters. She is NOT being accused of being a transgendered woman -- the idea is one of deception, not trans*.

This is important to note, because the word itself is not ALWAYS used as a slur. In fact, in common internet parlance (especially on 4chan), it's used for exactly the purpose we've used it: to suggest that someone is not actually female, but pretends to be (and is quite convincing about it). Thus, a "trap": someone who fools men into thinking he is a she, trapping them into flirtatious behavior, including money and favors.

This ... is both transphobic and misogynistic. People opposing legal rights for trans people also cast their worries as only targeting "fake trans people" in an attempt to avoid accusations of discrimination. And the whole idea that one pretends to be a woman for favors is the sort of sexist nonsense that, rather than targeting people for their acts of manipulation, decides to make it a matter of gender and women inherently obtaining advantages from men who apparently throw things at random people over the internet. Implicitly with the promise of eventual sexual intercourse, since apparently giving people stuff from outside your sexual orientation is out of the question. Maybe some men, convinced of this same ideology, attempt to use it against others who are absurd enough to send strangers things and then don't accept the responsibility of their actions, but they can be assholes without people conjuring the fear of "fake women" that is also a dangerous meme in society.

This is very naive.  Claiming to be a woman in an online communities obviously changes the perception of the person, to differing extents depending on the community in question.  It tends to garner negative or unwanted attention along with the positive, but as a general rule it garners attention - which is why people do it regardless of gender or trans status.  Attention is inherently valuable online, and a limited resource.  People claim to be all sorts of things to bolster their arguments.

Which works out well, actually.  Being appropriately skeptical of anything a person claims about themself means you have to examine what they say, undistorted by what they are.

And when what they say is "I'm female!  Now pay attention to this..." I don't care whether it's true.  I just know that, while their argument may have merit, they're also seeking cheap attention, and that's a bad sign.

Anyway!  They're using "trap" to describe this very common practice.  Not trans people.  The fact that some violent criminals have called their victims traps is irrelevant, as is the fact that some people doubt trans people's status as trans.  Those people don't have any right to define the word.
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GreatJustice

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3379 on: August 29, 2014, 10:26:46 am »

Quote

The most important thing to note here is that we're not actually using "trap" as a transphobic slur at all. The character who's being called a "trap" is being accused of pretending to be a girl on the internet in order to curry favor with her male co-posters. She is NOT being accused of being a transgendered woman -- the idea is one of deception, not trans*.

This is important to note, because the word itself is not ALWAYS used as a slur. In fact, in common internet parlance (especially on 4chan), it's used for exactly the purpose we've used it: to suggest that someone is not actually female, but pretends to be (and is quite convincing about it). Thus, a "trap": someone who fools men into thinking he is a she, trapping them into flirtatious behavior, including money and favors.

This ... is both transphobic and misogynistic. People opposing legal rights for trans people also cast their worries as only targeting "fake trans people" in an attempt to avoid accusations of discrimination. And the whole idea that one pretends to be a woman for favors is the sort of sexist nonsense that, rather than targeting people for their acts of manipulation, decides to make it a matter of gender and women inherently obtaining advantages from men who apparently throw things at random people over the internet. Implicitly with the promise of eventual sexual intercourse, since apparently giving people stuff from outside your sexual orientation is out of the question. Maybe some men, convinced of this same ideology, attempt to use it against others who are absurd enough to send strangers things and then don't accept the responsibility of their actions, but they can be assholes without people conjuring the fear of "fake women" that is also a dangerous meme in society.

This is very naive.  Claiming to be a woman in an online communities obviously changes the perception of the person, to differing extents depending on the community in question.  It tends to garner negative or unwanted attention along with the positive, but as a general rule it garners attention - which is why people do it regardless of gender or trans status.  Attention is inherently valuable online, and a limited resource.  People claim to be all sorts of things to bolster their arguments.

Which works out well, actually.  Being appropriately skeptical of anything a person claims about themself means you have to examine what they say, undistorted by what they are.

And when what they say is "I'm female!  Now pay attention to this..." I don't care whether it's true.  I just know that, while their argument may have merit, they're also seeking cheap attention, and that's a bad sign.

Anyway!  They're using "trap" to describe this very common practice.  Not trans people.  The fact that some violent criminals have called their victims traps is irrelevant, as is the fact that some people doubt trans people's status as trans.  Those people don't have any right to define the word.

Can confirm. One of the servers I used to play on had a moderator who obtained that position by pretending to be female, exploiting the resulting attention to get a fairly publicized moderator application and thus get on the staff. This person also received various ingame gifts, high positions in major factions, and other perks. They were ultimately exposed quite a while later and received a lot of shit for it (rightly so might I add), but they had gained far more power than they ever would have had they not pretended to be female in the first place. This is a common thing throughout the internet by the way.
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3380 on: August 29, 2014, 10:54:35 am »

Quote
Can confirm.

I don't think anyone is really doubting that pretending to be a woman for an advantage isn't real or somewhat common. I think the issue at play is that people are misattributing it to trans people or that it is being used as a platform to question the credentials of trans people.
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GreatJustice

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3381 on: August 29, 2014, 11:09:30 am »

Quote
Can confirm.

I don't think anyone is really doubting that pretending to be a woman for an advantage isn't real or somewhat common. I think the issue at play is that people are misattributing it to trans people or that it is being used as a platform to question the credentials of trans people.

Okay. Well that's a somewhat different topic, but I'd say that there are a lot of practical issues with trans accommodation coming from that direction. I mean, some people seem to argue that it's literally impossible for someone to fake being trans for some kind of benefit or simply on spur on the moment, and if you say otherwise you're a hateful misogynist bigot.
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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penguinofhonor

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Re: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3382 on: August 29, 2014, 11:57:58 am »

What's the point of that strawman?
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lijacote

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3383 on: August 29, 2014, 12:21:11 pm »

To defame, to deny. To reproduce a culture of exploitation.

I never knew Bay 12 had a side like this. People like these. People who propose that racism and sexism are over. People that replace analysis with... nothing. I am driven to despair - I thought you better, Bay 12. I thought you better.
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3384 on: August 29, 2014, 12:23:12 pm »

People who propose that racism and sexism are over. People that replace analysis with... nothing. I am driven to despair - I thought you better, Bay 12. I thought you better.

No one said sexism or racism is over. The major argument you are referring to is the belief that sexism or racism has gotten to the point where it is repairing itself without the need for radical action.
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lijacote

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3385 on: August 29, 2014, 12:39:33 pm »

I do not refer to any specific instance, I refer to the discourse of denial. "There is no sexism in the West", and other examples. Now I can add "it will fix itself" to that set.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3386 on: August 29, 2014, 12:44:55 pm »

People who propose that racism and sexism are over. People that replace analysis with... nothing. I am driven to despair - I thought you better, Bay 12. I thought you better.

No one said sexism or racism is over. The major argument you are referring to is the belief that sexism or racism has gotten to the point where it is repairing itself without the need for radical action.

That has always been a defense of the status quo. People said slavery was repairing itself without the need for radical action.
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3387 on: August 29, 2014, 12:49:14 pm »

People who propose that racism and sexism are over. People that replace analysis with... nothing. I am driven to despair - I thought you better, Bay 12. I thought you better.

No one said sexism or racism is over. The major argument you are referring to is the belief that sexism or racism has gotten to the point where it is repairing itself without the need for radical action.

That has always been a defense of the status quo. People said slavery was repairing itself without the need for radical action.

It isn't a meritless belief.

Since, guess what? That is EXACTLY what happened with Slavery. The American Civil War did nothing to affect Slavery, it was actually the work put into it over the years that abolished in it America.
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penguinofhonor

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Neonivek

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Re: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3389 on: August 29, 2014, 12:53:22 pm »

"nothing to affect Slavery"

Did nothing. It wasn't worth the paper it was written on for all the good it actually did at the time.

Mind you it couldn't have worked anyway. America didn't have the infrastructure at the time to accommodate mass emancipation.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 12:58:27 pm by Neonivek »
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