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Author Topic: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'  (Read 309501 times)

Mindmaker

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3360 on: August 23, 2014, 04:47:24 am »

I think, although I haven't really looked what's it all about. Apparently also japanese imageboard culture.
On the other hand I don't understand why stripping young women would be controversial.

The "trap" meme is used as an excuse to murder trans women.
Wait what?
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Sergarr

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3361 on: August 23, 2014, 04:48:12 am »

Look, if we start to ban words because somebody uses them as an excuse to kill people, we would be soon left without any vocabulary at all.
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Ogdibus

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3362 on: August 23, 2014, 05:02:17 am »

Wait what?
Look into it on your own if you want, but if you're like most people, you don't care enough to bother with it.  It takes a long time to understand, and you probably don't have enough personal incentive to bother with it. 

The reason that I say we can't have an intelligent discussion is because most of the people on this forum know nothing about the issues involved, and don't care to learn.  You probably aren't going to find someone that is both informed and willing to explain.
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Graknorke

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Re: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3363 on: August 23, 2014, 05:06:15 am »

Are you talking about the whole, "Went to sleep with someone, had different sexy bits to expected, so murder is totally justified," thing? Because apart from the fact I've never seen that have anywhere near majority support among any group, I'm also reasonably sure that's not the approach being taken up by the game.
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Mindmaker

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3364 on: August 23, 2014, 05:13:27 am »

Do you mean those stories about crossdressers/transgender people, where after finding out they weren't what they assumed to be "just a woman" men then acted violently against them or even murdered them in some instances, because they "felt tricked"?
Sure, those exists, but I don't know if those are THE origin of that word. The most certainly aren't for the communities this game is aimed at, where it's either a descriptive term, a romanticizing one or even one of endorsement (if you consider how popular erotic content featuring those themes is).

It's just for most people in that discussion this has been the first encounter with it and they automatically established a link between trap and transgender, when in reality this word has long existed before transgender was even a thing. In it's original meaning it was just used for crossdressers.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 05:17:17 am by Mindmaker »
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scrdest

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3365 on: August 23, 2014, 05:15:17 am »

Wait what?
Look into it on your own if you want, but if you're like most people, you don't care enough to bother with it.  It takes a long time to understand, and you probably don't have enough personal incentive to bother with it. 

The reason that I say we can't have an intelligent discussion is because most of the people on this forum know nothing about the issues involved, and don't care to learn.  You probably aren't going to find someone that is both informed and willing to explain.

Wow. Patronizing much?
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Ogdibus

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3366 on: August 23, 2014, 05:22:09 am »

The developers probably didn't mean anything by it.  They probably thought it was cute.  I actually liked the term until I found out that it was used in some pretty horrible ways.  Directing anger at them isn't a good way to inform people about the issue, but it does make it clear that there is demand for a change.  I doubt that's "the plan", but that's how this sort of thing tends to work out.



Edit:  I don't mean to call anyone here stupid, by the way.  It just takes more than intelligence to have a meaningful discussion.  Critical thinking is of little use without facts.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 05:42:08 am by Ogdibus »
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Phmcw

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3367 on: August 23, 2014, 05:24:39 am »

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Directing anger at them isn't a good way to inform people about the issue, but it does make it clear that there is demand for a change.  I doubt that's "the plan", but that's how this sort of thing tends to work out.

Anyone good at the whole internet thing don't give a shit about internet anger. The only good way to react to it is to fan the flames for free fame and attention.
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Glowcat

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3368 on: August 23, 2014, 08:02:22 am »

"Trap" when used to describe transwomen or genderfluid people becomes inherently problematic due both to the awful reality of how often it plays into the imaginations of people who either kill trans people themselves or otherwise support oppressive legislation built around "trans/gay panic" ideas. It also is inherently possessive of the person's experience because it seeks to establish their purpose as sexual tricksters entirely related to them, the cissexual heterosexual (usually male in media though there are enough TERF lesbians to make it a thing in flesh-space too.) It does not consider the trans person as a person with their own needs. They're simply there to elicit an "ewwww gay" response at the reveal, intrinsically directed at the trans person but also the interested party unless they do something (such as show their disgust) to prove their sexuality, something that's pretty screwed up in itself.

And there are plenty of people who enthusiastically endorse these views, even if they don't advocate for full on murder themselves (and that is an if). Whenever I have seen a "trap" scene that can be publicly commented upon there are several posters remarking how they would "punch the fa---t" or otherwise initiate hostilities if they were caught in that situation. For trans people this brings up legitimate fears that are placed upon them by society and friends who've been lost. But the fact that the memes behind "trap" depictions are hurtful (emotionally, physically, and in social influence) usually doesn't stop cis people from gleefully using it for their own entertainment.

As for Akiba Trip, briefly looking at the response I can see why people would be upset with them.
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The most important thing to note here is that we're not actually using "trap" as a transphobic slur at all. The character who's being called a "trap" is being accused of pretending to be a girl on the internet in order to curry favor with her male co-posters. She is NOT being accused of being a transgendered woman -- the idea is one of deception, not trans*.

This is important to note, because the word itself is not ALWAYS used as a slur. In fact, in common internet parlance (especially on 4chan), it's used for exactly the purpose we've used it: to suggest that someone is not actually female, but pretends to be (and is quite convincing about it). Thus, a "trap": someone who fools men into thinking he is a she, trapping them into flirtatious behavior, including money and favors.

This ... is both transphobic and misogynistic. People opposing legal rights for trans people also cast their worries as only targeting "fake trans people" in an attempt to avoid accusations of discrimination. And the whole idea that one pretends to be a woman for favors is the sort of sexist nonsense that, rather than targeting people for their acts of manipulation, decides to make it a matter of gender and women inherently obtaining advantages from men who apparently throw things at random people over the internet. Implicitly with the promise of eventual sexual intercourse, since apparently giving people stuff from outside your sexual orientation is out of the question. Maybe some men, convinced of this same ideology, attempt to use it against others who are absurd enough to send strangers things and then don't accept the responsibility of their actions, but they can be assholes without people conjuring the fear of "fake women" that is also a dangerous meme in society.
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3369 on: August 23, 2014, 08:10:12 am »

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the whole idea that one pretends to be a woman for favors is the sort of sexist nonsense

I am confused... because I know this happens and can be an issue. Usually in any community in which women have the clear advantage.
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Glowcat

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3370 on: August 23, 2014, 08:14:35 am »

Try to read past the comma...
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3371 on: August 23, 2014, 08:16:20 am »

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decides to make it a matter of gender and women inherently obtaining advantages from men who apparently throw things at random people over the internet

Mostly because I don't know about this either.

Also yeah... that happens too >_< "apparently" nothing xD

People are weird.

Mind you I only seen this in EXACTLY 2 communities (as in types of communities)... it isn't a real factor in other places.

----

Mind you in ALL THOSE SITUATIONS I am weakly alluding to... It isn't a Transgendered person.

It was a Straight Non-Trans Male, often white, pretending to be a woman in order to get services.

But the shotgun of prejudice is in shaky hands.

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They're simply there to elicit an "ewwww gay" response at the reveal, intrinsically directed at the trans person but also the interested party unless they do something (such as show their disgust) to prove their sexuality, something that's pretty screwed up in itself

Have you met men? Comfort in their sexuality is not something I'd use to describe men..
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 08:39:29 am by Neonivek »
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Glowcat

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3372 on: August 23, 2014, 08:38:09 am »

That pretending to be a woman is the important part here, and not somebody attempting to manipulate/scam people. This points to the underlying entitlement issues men have over women in that "gifts" are assumed to lead to sex or romantic favor. It's pretty manipulative in itself to give people stuff in an attempt to "purchase" access of their body or affection when there isn't a clean line being drawn about what is expected of the situation.

A woman (cis or trans) could also manipulate people in the fashion feared, but it's misogynistic to couch the incident in terms of her being a woman or that being a woman inherently allowed this rather than a culture that sees favors deserving affection as the status quo. The misogyny arises when people automatically assume a woman's sexuality is to obtain social advantage as if it were a commodity rather than her sexuality. There are people who attempt to seduce for benefits but it is far too often that a woman would be accused of seduction by default whereas masculine people experience almost none of that scrutiny in their sexual behavior.
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3373 on: August 23, 2014, 08:51:01 am »

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a culture that sees favors deserving affection as the status quo

This... Won't ever go away. It is just human nature.

I cannot think of a society on earth or that ever existed where this wasn't the case.

I do find it odd that the "Women should refuse gifts" culture died off oddly with the rise of feminism... I would have guessed the opposite... but if I had to wager a guess, it died off because it is a restriction on women's behavior and is part of the "protect women at all times" thinking of the past.

I'd comment on other things, and I have written things >_<... but I often don't know what you are alluding to or if you are alluding.

Note: I am not saying the "I bought you dinner, why aren't you coming home with me?" doesn't need to change. So much as saying that it won't go away fully.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 09:50:26 am by Neonivek »
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Phmcw

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3374 on: August 23, 2014, 10:15:15 am »

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I am not saying the "I bought you dinner, why aren't you coming home with me?" doesn't need to change.

Feinging interest to get free stuff, or even marrying for money, is pretty common though. You're not entitled to anything for your gifts, but it is possible that the person you're going outwith is insincere.

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whereas masculine people experience almost none of that scrutiny in their sexual behavior.

Everyone get scrutinized a lot, expecially for their sexual behavior. And a men that sleep with everyone may be looked up in Americain "romantic" comedies, but IRL they are seen as unreliable, unstable and shallow.

I don't feel the trap meme particularly entretaining or funny, but I doubt it has ever been a factor in any act of violence. Jokes don't make peoples hatefull, but hatefull peoples may make jokes. Then sometime they are just harmless jokes.
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