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[Rolepgeek]

Besides which, again, like I said, being maimed isn't relevant because the same thing is done to the male character for the same reasons.

Temporal issue. "Ethan" the male doesn't exist. Only Ethan the female exists.

Alright. Fair point. In that case it could very well be viewed as being sexist and done for the shock value, though shocking the player through injuring the protagonist isn't in and of itself sexist.

But again, refer to my point given previously. You are only reiterating what I was saying.

Now, I'm going to take a moment, and thank you. I'm going to thank you for proving my point, considering my point was that if it's sexist whilst gender-flipped, it's probably sexist when not gender-flipped, and vice versa. Reread that sentence to make sure you understand what I'm trying to say, since we are misinterpreting each other so often here, apparently.

I even asked you to read it a second time to make sure you saw.

Also to your edit: I agree, there was no reason for them to get romantically involved(but games always feel there has to be...)

I might be biased as to the Father storyline for games, as the only games within the genre of survival/horror basically were Father-child storylines, like The Walking Dead. Which was the first game to ever actually make me tear up.

[Neonivek]

The usual reason for this is because there is a general belief that fathers cannot be nurturing.

It is why the "Rowdy" father tends to get the storyline. Not because he is so worried about his daughter that he must get her back but in a "Anyone who messes with my family will get my boot up their ass!" You know avenging his daughters honor and all that. It SEEMS similar but I consider it to be a separate type of plotline.

The female counterpart of this is: "All women are naturally nurturing who will instantly step up into a mother role at a moment's notice"

Mind you I've seen exceptions even from the Black and White Era... and wow did that movie seem odd with how I know they would depict it today (The movie is about a mother who goes through a midlife crisis and becomes completely neglectful to her child to the extent that the father divorces her and takes the child away, and yes the movie rightfully treats this as her fault and the father as suitably nurturing. and other stuff happens >_>)

[Rolepgeek]

Aye, which is an unfortunate belief tied into the 'women are mothers, fathers are workers' stereotype.

I would definitely agree that that's her fault. Feminism(in my view, at least) is not trying to pretend women are perfect or unblameable; it's understanding what is her fault because it's her fault, and what's "her fault" because unfair expectations were had of her, or whee it's actually someone else's fault and people are trying to use her as a scapegoat/shift the blame from themselves through sexist means.

[Neonivek]

Well there is no "one" feminism anyhow.

Though yes most forms of feminism of merit are equally against both the positive and negative stereotypes of women and men (mostly because the stereotypes play off of each other).

I only found it odd because... This is a really odd plot for any movie. She wasn't abusive, she was just criminally neglectful because of a midlife crisis... as well as a movie choosing the father's side. Even though the movie was about her.

Most movies about women are about how they are the victims or triumphing over some external force... Yet this is a movie where everything bad that happens is entirely her own dang fault, she doesn't care about her child, and is the lesser parent between her and her husband. MIND YOU it ends with her committing suicide to save her Daughter, which she herself put in danger... but still.

It just stands out to me for pretty much playing a woman almost against type. If this movie was made today it would probably paint her as a victim.

----

Can I have a stereotype check...

How many female characters, who are main characters, are mother characters whose prime motivator is her children?

I am trying to think of them... but all I honestly get is Sophitia.

[Helgoland]

Might be because mothers are mostly too old to be leads. Can you think of a main character who's a father and where the same principles apply?

PTW, anyway.

[Glowcat]

Virtually all women in our society in real life experience sexism on a day-to-day basis.  It is easier to relate to characters who have similar problems and desires to you.  Therefore characters who experience sexism (or some analogue thereof) are more likely to be relatable to a female audience than characters who just magically don't have to deal with the problem at all.  It is fine if those characters gloriously overcome these challenges and shatter their society's expectations, but that doesn't mean the challenges should not be there.  Do you understand what I am saying?

I think that addressing sexism well can make your character much more relatable to women, but that doesn't mean sexism is the only level they can relate to them on. Most people have quite a variety of problems in their lives.

Would you say that you must include racism in some capacity to include characters of color?

I think we should also steer away from fantasy games entirely, since they don't speak to our real life experiences of commuting to work, struggling with financial institutions, and not having the strength to fight a kitten trapped in a wet bag. There should also be considerable more pooping in video games. Now that's the game that'll speak to my experience!

[Vector]

Might be because mothers are mostly too old to be leads. Can you think of a main character who's a father and where the same principles apply?

I feel like playing a father figure in games, if not an actual father, is pretty common. Not so much maternal figure--as uncommon as playing a girl at all is, playing one over thirty (as opposed to a male character around 30--you know, grizzled) is basically a non-option.

[Leafsnail]

I think that addressing sexism well can make your character much more relatable to women, but that doesn't mean sexism is the only level they can relate to them on. Most people have quite a variety of problems in their lives.

Sure, this doesn't contradict any part of my argument.

Would you say that you must include racism in some capacity to include characters of color?

Racism is different in that not all societies discriminate against the same people.  I would say it would be pretty fucking ridiculous to pretend that black people don't face discrimination in, say, a modern day US setting though, and if a serious story excluded it then I'd question the motives of the author (are they trying to say racism is no longer a problem?).

I think we should also steer away from fantasy games entirely, since they don't speak to our real life experiences of commuting to work, struggling with financial institutions, and not having the strength to fight a kitten trapped in a wet bag. There should also be considerable more pooping in video games. Now that's the game that'll speak to my experience!

They don't have to appeal to your experience on the most superficial level.  A good fantasy story will contain themes that most of its readers can relate to (how can I live up to the expectations of my family?  What can I do when I've been wronged by someone far more powerful than me?  How can I achieve my dreams even though society keeps looking down on me?  etc).

[Vector]

Women can be expected to be heroes, too, by their families. They can also long for the respect of their fathers. They can also chase after and try to save their girlfriends.

I get what you're saying, but it's incredibly frustrating to have all of your motivations built around traumatic injury. Sexism isn't a simple "Trying to live up to my family expectations." It's "trying to live when the entire societal structure is built around removing your bodily autonomy." So, you know, yeah--you could make a game about violently tearing down the patriarchy, but I don't personally imagine it being very emotionally satisfying.

[Leafsnail]

It's not going to be about destroying the patriarchy in almost all cases, it's about defying the limitations imposed by society in order to achieve your goals (being a hero, saving your loved ones, whatever).  It doesn't have to manifest itself as a central traumatic injury, just as one of the challenges faced by the character.

[Vector]

It's not going to be about destroying the patriarchy in almost all cases, it's about defying the limitations imposed by society in order to achieve your goals (being a hero, saving your loved ones, whatever).  It doesn't have to manifest itself as a central traumatic injury, just as one of the challenges faced by the character.

Sometimes I want a break, too. I can relate to a character even if they're not oppressed.

[Neonivek]

The series that probably did "Old women are icky" the best (or worst... but >_< double negatives and all that) is Tekken bar none.

They outright came with as many excuses as possible to ensure that no woman would be above 30 during their timeskip. They allowed every other male character to age, even the "hot" ones. But women? They either put them in cryogenic suspension so they wouldn't age, or gave them a daughter character so they wouldn't age.

[Leafsnail]

Sometimes I want a break, too. I can relate to a character even if they're not oppressed.

Sure.  That's not something that I'm arguing against, what I'm going against is the notion that you should always be able to flip the genders of everyone in a story without changing anything else, and that if you can't there's somehow something "wrong".

[Neonivek]

While my point was that there is a good reason why more games, especially ones that have a strong narrative focus on the main character, do not have a "select a gender", and that being that it dilutes the main character.

[Rolepgeek]

Sometimes I want a break, too. I can relate to a character even if they're not oppressed.

Sure.  That's not something that I'm arguing against, what I'm going against is the notion that you should always be able to flip the genders of everyone in a story without changing anything else, and that if you can't there's somehow something "wrong".

Again, I wasn't saying always, thank you so much for using absolutes in this discussion in an effort to make my viewpoint seem less valid, it says so much about you as a person and helps your case greatly.

And I never said 'without changing anything else'. But you shouldn't have to rewrite the story from scratch, that's for damn sure, and most of the time it really wouldn't/shouldn't matter much whether it's Captain Falcon or Captain Falcona. Marth or Martha, Samus or Sam, it really shouldn't matter, yet so many stories prefer the male protagonist for bullcrap reasons.