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[sal880612m]

Thank you for giving me an excuse to drop this link. It's been cluttering up one of my tab groups for a while but I felt it would be a waste to never use it anywhere relevant.

Unbridled feminist orthodoxy is no more the answer than are attitudes and policies that victimize the victim.

This was my take away from that article.

[Rolepgeek]

THEN WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEP BRINGING UP SEXISM AS IT APPLIES TO MEN?

Well good question there are multiple reasons for this.

1) A lot of people handle equality in a male and female capacity, rather then just one gender. Believing that true equality is obtained when the issues of both sexes are handled. Most forms of feminism, for example, believes in this.
2) Some people do not believe that the severity of the one groups problem completely occludes the issues of another.
3) Issues that affect women usually have male counter parts (For example Violence towards females with the violent male expectation)

No one has tried to devalue the issues women face or anyone's need above theirs.

But more importantly

4) The conversation has constantly been steered towards how men cannot understand sexism and that their opinions on such should be considered lesser. That a woman's pain runs deeper than any man's. It begs this kind of conversation.

1) I believe in equality between the sexes. I just think we need to focus on sexism towards women first, because it's more likely to result in more terrible things, and in this thread, since it was originally made around sexism towards women. If there's a general sexism thread, I'm all for it.
2) Completely, no. For the moment, yes.
3) Okay? Not sure how that's relevant, but not in a way that I think you're wrong, just in a way that I'm confused and honestly want to understand now because it sounds interesting and worth discussion.
4) It's been steered that way because men are saying they claim to know as much or more about sexism against women as women do. Which is false. I don't know as much about it as women do, because I'm a man. I acknowledge that fact, and try to learn more, instead of thinking I know what's best for them or some such.

So are you saying that rape doesn't actually happen often then?

Red Herring

No, actually, it's not. If you look at the way he phrased that, he seems to be saying that rapes don't actually happen, because there isn't enough evidence to prove them, thus a system to find people guilty whether or not they are was put into place. Just calling it a red herring doesn't actually solve anything/

[Neonivek]

If you look at the way he phrased that, he seems to be saying that rapes don't actually happen

No he really REALLY isn't. He would be insane if he honestly said that.

As "False rape accusations" are a percent of all rape accusations. (2-40% though conservatively it is thought to be about 5%)

---

 

Okay? Not sure how that's relevant, but not in a way that I think you're wrong, just in a way that I'm confused and honestly want to understand now because it sounds interesting and worth discussion

Well just think of any issue presented towards women.

Most of the time you will also be able to find an male issue, lesser but still existent, that propagates this.

Women are weak defenseless beings that need to be protected is propagated further by the view that men need to be strong protectors.

Women being treated as sex objects being propagated by men are insatiable sex machines with no control over their libido.

It is probably a lot less interesting now that I explained it.

[Graknorke]

So are you saying that rape doesn't actually happen often then? Careful there Graknorke. That's a can of worms even I don't want to open. Yes, rape is difficult to prove. That's like half the problem with the whole scenario regarding it.

Yeah, I could see that one coming. It was an absent-minded re-use of the phrasing in your post not meant to imply that.

Anyway, even though rape is often hard to prove (especially if it happened a long time before being reported), does that make it fair to assume it happened when it cannot actually be proven?

[Rolepgeek]

So are you saying that rape doesn't actually happen often then? Careful there Graknorke. That's a can of worms even I don't want to open. Yes, rape is difficult to prove. That's like half the problem with the whole scenario regarding it.

Yeah, I could see that one coming. It was an absent-minded re-use of the phrasing in your post not meant to imply that.
But even though rape is often hard to prove (especially if it happened a long time before being reported), does that make it fair to assume it happened when it cannot actually be proven?

No, you're right, it doesn't make it fair. But does that means it's fair to simply let it go?

[Graknorke]

So are you saying that rape doesn't actually happen often then? Careful there Graknorke. That's a can of worms even I don't want to open. Yes, rape is difficult to prove. That's like half the problem with the whole scenario regarding it.

Yeah, I could see that one coming. It was an absent-minded re-use of the phrasing in your post not meant to imply that.
But even though rape is often hard to prove (especially if it happened a long time before being reported), does that make it fair to assume it happened when it cannot actually be proven?

No, you're right, it doesn't make it fair. But does that means it's fair to simply let it go?

What else can you do? Barring improvements in technology used for investigation you can either try and get men convicted when they can't prove they've done it or let it go. If you can think of other ways it could go then say, but as far as I can think it's a binary choice.

[sal880612m]

4) It's been steered that way because men are saying they claim to know as much or more about sexism against women as women do. Which is false. I don't know as much about it as women do, because I'm a man. I acknowledge that fact, and try to learn more, instead of thinking I know what's best for them or some such.

The one thing I think is worth noting was that one person made the distinction that sexism in one region may be different in prevalence and intensity than in another region. Taken all together it is a large issue but that doesn't mean that taken region by region it always is. In this way someone from halfway around the world isn't likely to know as much about state of sexism in that region as the person living there regardless of how the genders fall.
I don't think this is always true because men won't always see sexism even if it is present or know about it because no one talks about it or says things like that happen here. I didn't think they did happen where I live until someone told me about some of the stuff that had happened to them. I can't however feel justified in saying that it must be just as bad there as it is here because I am not there.

[Rolepgeek]

So are you saying that rape doesn't actually happen often then? Careful there Graknorke. That's a can of worms even I don't want to open. Yes, rape is difficult to prove. That's like half the problem with the whole scenario regarding it.

Yeah, I could see that one coming. It was an absent-minded re-use of the phrasing in your post not meant to imply that.
But even though rape is often hard to prove (especially if it happened a long time before being reported), does that make it fair to assume it happened when it cannot actually be proven?

No, you're right, it doesn't make it fair. But does that means it's fair to simply let it go?

What else can you do? Barring improvements in technology used for investigation you can either try and get men convicted when they can't prove they've done it or let it go. If you can think of other ways it could go then say, but as far as I can think it's a binary choice.

Ech....I know...
Luckily, there's witnesses(hopefully good ones, intelligent judges, etc.; friends of both parties, blah blah blah), circumstantial evidence(that is, history of X, suspicious behaviour), etc. that can at least allow for an attempt. I mean, hell, the reason so many rapists go free is for a couple of reasons, but other than not reporting it and victim-blaming, this is one of the big ones.


Also, this seems to be what this keeps narrowly avoiding becoming. >.>

@sal: Which is worse; underestimating the problem and trying to fix a little, or overestimating and trying to fix too much?

[Neonivek]

Let me guess, MRA video? If it is, look everyone knows they are insane!

I won't click because I don't want youtube to start suggestion MRA videos >_<

Which is worse; underestimating the problem and trying to fix a little, or overestimating and trying to fix too much

Actually there are about equal.

In one the problem doesn't get fixed... In the other you just replaced one problem for another. In both situations nothing improved.

It is why due diligence is so important.

[Rolepgeek]

No, it's This Ain't a Scene by Fallout Boy. >.>

Thank you for thinking so little of me. I was attempting to inject levity so that this would continue to degenerate into a flame war.

[Neonivek]

You mentioned the MRA earlier, it would honestly match the flow of conversation to say "This thread is narrowly avoiding becoming a MRA video".

[Graknorke]

No, you're right, it doesn't make it fair. But does that means it's fair to simply let it go?

What else can you do? Barring improvements in technology used for investigation you can either try and get men convicted when they can't prove they've done it or let it go. If you can think of other ways it could go then say, but as far as I can think it's a binary choice.

Ech....I know...
Luckily, there's witnesses(hopefully good ones, intelligent judges, etc.; friends of both parties, blah blah blah), circumstantial evidence(that is, history of X, suspicious behaviour), etc. that can at least allow for an attempt. I mean, hell, the reason so many rapists go free is for a couple of reasons, but other than not reporting it and victim-blaming, this is one of the big ones.

Goodman was writing about how evidence wasn't accepted from the son about the history of the relationship, so really the evaluation of the evidence has to be fair and not so heavily biased. Like with most crimes that go to court.

@Neo: I wasn't under the impression that MRA videos were such a large genre

[Neonivek]

@Neo: I wasn't under the impression that MRA videos were such a large genre

Youtube finds a way trust me. Also yeah it is, to my knowledge (second hand mind you) they have entire series.

[sal880612m]

@sal: Which is worse; underestimating the problem and trying to fix a little, or overestimating and trying to fix too much?

I am going to be a dick and take the mathematical OR on that. Both are bad. If you make me choose I would say underestimating is worse.
Also I don't really know what you are getting at, discussing this on a forum is all well and good but it is our actions and attitudes IRL that will really make a difference as far as I am concerned, and due to the fact that people lack the ability to be omnipresent we are limited to making those kind of differences in the area we currently are.

[penguinofhonor]

I still have faith in this thread! We've made it this far with no Toady intervention.

It might've gotten dangerously close to flaming at times, but we either calm down or everyone gets tired and leaves and the thread goes into hibernation until the next video comes out.