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[Rolepgeek]

@Graknorke: I see. So you're an expert on sexism, because you're sexist. That makes sense. >.>

Do you disagree with the reasoning or not?
Your pretty obvious anger, contempt, and sarcasm don't do anything to help me understand what you're saying.

I think it's factually correct. I think claiming that you should be trusted in a topic about sexism because you personally are sexist is bullshit.

When did I say it was because I personally was sexist? It's about men as a whole. As you have insisted multiple times, non-male sexism is negligible, and men are mostly sexist. So it stands to reason that men would generally have experience with being sexist.

If you are stating that you have experience being sexist, and were cognizantly aware of the fact, you cannot be trusted in this debate to portray an appropriate and helpful depiction of facts.

[EnigmaticHat]

Seriously. Men don't typically have to worry about being raped because they go out at night whilst looking good. They don't have to worry about getting shouted down when they try to play a game online.

Apart from the fact that misses the point (it's not men in general ed was talking about, it was specifically when men were victims of sexism not how frequent this is), I have a counterpoint to what you said anyway.
Since men are the patriarchal oppressors of women, they should have experience of performing these acts. So should be equally credible when talking about it. In fact, probably more than the victims are, since they have an understanding of the motivations behind it. The same as perpetrators of crimes are high priorities in terms of being interrogated, above bystander witnesses.

OK first of all, interrogating perpetrators of crimes is done because they confess.  People are increasingly realizing that it leads to FALSE confessions.  It really isn't about whether they understand crime, its about either figuring out if they committed a crime, or getting a confession regardless of actual guilt, depending on what kind of police force it is.  Not a great analogy.

Secondly, no, that's not how it works.  Look at it like this: you get found guilty of murder.  You get twenty years in prison.  The next day, a black guy gets life for the exact same crime.  Were you, or the jurors consciously attempting to oppress black people?  No.  You still benefited from a system which favors you.  And you'll never know, unless you seek to find out, or someone explains it you.

Same thing with, say, slut shaming.  Man has sex with 10 woman and he's a player, woman has sex with 10 dudes and she's a slut.  No conscious oppression, but the man still benefited and the woman still suffered.  Neither of them probably know unless they're specifically paying attention.

[ed boy]

Yes, because the likelihood of being accused of rape and subsequently actually going to jail for it, when maybe 3% of actual rapists spend any time whatsoever in jail, is equally as likely as rape is for women.

You don't need a false rape accusation to send you to jail for it to ruin your life.

The areas in which men are 'victims' are results of sexism against women; if rape wasn't so goddamned common, none of that would be an issue, now would it?

That's a bold claim. I'm going to need you to back it up.

I mean, jeezus fucking christ, do you actually buy this bullshit? Are you part of the Men's Rights Association, too?

Are insults really necessary?

God. I mean, honestly, how the fuck is being accused of rape worse, or as likely to happen, as actually being raped?

I did not claim that being accused of rape is worse than being raped, nor did I claim that it was as likely to happen. I claimed that false rape accusations are a really bad thing, that can have life-ruining consequences.

And yes, I know how sexism can bullshit men, typically in regards to rape, but not in being accused of it, in the whole 'men can't be raped because they love sex hurr'. But the incidence of rape for men is smaller than the incidence of rape for women, leaving aside the whole victim-blaming issue.

The statistic of rapes by gender are somewhat skewed by definitions. In the UK, it's impossible to legally be considered a rapist unless you have a penis.

[Graknorke]

Secondly, no, that's not how it works.  Look at it like this: you get found guilty of murder.  You get twenty years in prison.  The next day, a black guy gets life for the exact same crime.  Were you, or the jurors consciously attempting to oppress black people?  No.  You still benefited from a system which favors you.  And you'll never know, unless you seek to find out, or someone explains it you.

Same thing with, say, slut shaming.  Man has sex with 10 woman and he's a player, woman has sex with 10 dudes and she's a slut.  No conscious oppression, but the man still benefited and the woman still suffered.  Neither of them probably know unless they're specifically paying attention.

And in both of those scenarios the bias is also noticed by the victim? I honestly don't think so. If it is ingrained so deeply into society that the people benefiting don't notice, then the people losing out wouldn't notice either. Because it's normal, the way things are. So if noticing how the system works is a qualifier for being valid to comment on it then in the context of sexism that still doesn't make women's observations inherently more valuable.

[Neonivek]

My only issue with the idea of false rape is...

What stops you from suing them for libel? They falsely accused you of something and you have clear and direct harm caused by it.

I mean yes, part of the major reason why false accusations are so destructive is the over focus on rape (Rape culture)... but is there any mechanism that stops you from likewise suing the pants off of the accuser?

I mean this isn't the only time I've heard of women libeling men and harming their lives. For example women who would post fake things on websites... but that is Libel too. Yet the reason that was harder to sue for was because employers don't have to tell you what sources they use to not hire you.

[Rolepgeek]

Yes, because the likelihood of being accused of rape and subsequently actually going to jail for it, when maybe 3% of actual rapists spend any time whatsoever in jail, is equally as likely as rape is for women.

You don't need a false rape accusation to send you to jail for it to ruin your life.

Yes, your life is so much worse than the person who actually got raped.

The areas in which men are 'victims' are results of sexism against women; if rape wasn't so goddamned common, none of that would be an issue, now would it?

That's a bold claim. I'm going to need you to back it up.

It would be a lot more difficult to convince people of fake rape, if real rape wasn't everywhere.

I mean, jeezus fucking christ, do you actually buy this bullshit? Are you part of the Men's Rights Association, too?

Are insults really necessary?

If I insulted you, my apologies. But this is entirely bullshit, and I can't believe you people buy it. "Waah waah poor me I'm a man, there's so much sexism against me focus on my problems, not women's, waah!" Or, if not that, then it's about "Well there's sexism against me, so it's only fair there's sexism against them too." OR, if not that, then you still aren't being useful to the discussion at all.

God. I mean, honestly, how the fuck is being accused of rape worse, or as likely to happen, as actually being raped?

I did not claim that being accused of rape is worse than being raped, nor did I claim that it was as likely to happen. I claimed that false rape accusations are a really bad thing, that can have life-ruining consequences.

You're right. They suck. You know what else sucks, worse? Rape. Weird, isn't it. SEXISM IS A THING, AND IT'S WORSE FOR WOMEN. Jeezus fucking christ.

And yes, I know how sexism can bullshit men, typically in regards to rape, but not in being accused of it, in the whole 'men can't be raped because they love sex hurr'. But the incidence of rape for men is smaller than the incidence of rape for women, leaving aside the whole victim-blaming issue.

The statistic of rapes by gender are somewhat skewed by definitions. In the UK, it's impossible to legally be considered a rapist unless you have a penis.

Well, A. This is basically agreeing with me; B. That's a bullshit law; and C. I was also referring to men being raped by other men.

Secondly, no, that's not how it works.  Look at it like this: you get found guilty of murder.  You get twenty years in prison.  The next day, a black guy gets life for the exact same crime.  Were you, or the jurors consciously attempting to oppress black people?  No.  You still benefited from a system which favors you.  And you'll never know, unless you seek to find out, or someone explains it you.

Same thing with, say, slut shaming.  Man has sex with 10 woman and he's a player, woman has sex with 10 dudes and she's a slut.  No conscious oppression, but the man still benefited and the woman still suffered.  Neither of them probably know unless they're specifically paying attention.

And in both of those scenarios the bias is also noticed by the victim? I honestly don't think so. If it is ingrained so deeply into society that the people benefiting don't notice, then the people losing out wouldn't notice either. Because it's normal, the way things are. So if noticing how the system works is a qualifier for being valid to comment on it then in the context of sexism that still doesn't make women's observations inherently more valuable.

Yes, in both of those scenarios the bias is noticed by the victim. Women notice being called sluts. Ethnic minorites notice being sentenced to jail for the rest of their life whilst white people go free.

@Neonivek: I honestly have no idea what you're really getting at here? There's the mechanism of not having enough money to pay a lawyer.

[Neonivek]

Careful Rolepgeek, don't oversell rape. That is just as harmful to victims as underselling it.

@Neonivek: I honestly have no idea what you're really getting at here? There's the mechanism of not having enough money to pay a lawyer.

I am not getting to any point. I am genuinely asking a question. If false rape accusations could easily be counter sued, that would be something.

SEXISM IS A THING, AND IT'S WORSE FOR WOMEN. Jeezus fucking christ

Red Herring. It is all just one big Red herring.

I know Ed Boy's point of view differs from yours... but it isn't a overall disagreeable position. He isn't saying women aren't disadvantaged, he isn't saying rape isn't terrible or even worse then being accused. He is simply saying that just because you are a man it doesn't mean life destroying sexism is less harmful because you have advantages, that really the advantages and disadvantages between the genders aren't universal they differ within spheres.

[Ogdibus]

If it is ingrained so deeply into society that the people benefiting don't notice, then the people losing out wouldn't notice either.

This is false.  It is demonstrated to be false on a regular basis.  The people that are negatively affected will try to figure out why they are negatively affected.  This is when they find out about the inequality.  Once they are aware that it happens, they watch for it.

[Rolepgeek]

Careful Rolepgeek, don't oversell rape. That is just as harmful to victims as underselling it.

@Neonivek: I honestly have no idea what you're really getting at here? There's the mechanism of not having enough money to pay a lawyer.

I am not getting to any point. I am genuinely asking a question. If false rape accusations could easily be counter sued, that would be something.

I'm fairly sure they can, and most people just don't have the money or time if their lives have been ruined like people were saying. They're too busy trying to survive.

SEXISM IS A THING, AND IT'S WORSE FOR WOMEN. Jeezus fucking christ

Red Herring

THEN WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEP BRINGING UP SEXISM AS IT APPLIES TO MEN?

[Graknorke]

The areas in which men are 'victims' are results of sexism against women; if rape wasn't so goddamned common, none of that would be an issue, now would it?

That's a bold claim. I'm going to need you to back it up.

It would be a lot more difficult to convince people of fake rape, if real rape wasn't everywhere.

Thank you for giving me an excuse to drop this link. It's been cluttering up one of my tab groups for a while but I felt it would be a waste to never use it anywhere relevant.

Yes, in both of those scenarios the bias is noticed by the victim. Women notice being called sluts. Ethnic minorites notice being sentenced to jail for the rest of their life whilst white people go free.

Noticing the consequences is not the same as noticing the cause.


Anyway, I think it's calm down time for rolepgeek. When you're setting up crude impressions of people who disagree with you and yelling in all caps maybe it's time to evaluate your frame of mind.

[Rolepgeek]

The areas in which men are 'victims' are results of sexism against women; if rape wasn't so goddamned common, none of that would be an issue, now would it?

That's a bold claim. I'm going to need you to back it up.

It would be a lot more difficult to convince people of fake rape, if real rape wasn't everywhere.

Thank you for giving me an excuse to drop this link. It's been cluttering up one of my tab groups for a while but I felt it would be a waste to never use it anywhere relevant.

So, what exactly are you trying to say here, then? That rape accusations are more likely to be false than true? That the fact that people can be accused of rape so easily isn't a consequence of there being so many instances of real rape? If it wasn't that common, the university wouldn't have set up such a bullshit system of trial. They wouldn't have a reason to.

[Graknorke]

The areas in which men are 'victims' are results of sexism against women; if rape wasn't so goddamned common, none of that would be an issue, now would it?

That's a bold claim. I'm going to need you to back it up.

It would be a lot more difficult to convince people of fake rape, if real rape wasn't everywhere.

Thank you for giving me an excuse to drop this link. It's been cluttering up one of my tab groups for a while but I felt it would be a waste to never use it anywhere relevant.

So, what exactly are you trying to say here, then? That rape accusations are more likely to be false than true? That the fact that people can be accused of rape so easily isn't a consequence of there being so many instances of real rape? If it wasn't that common, the university wouldn't have set up such a bullshit system of trial. They wouldn't have a reason to.

That there are systems in place to try and manipulate the results to come out as guilty. If there were so many real rapes that could be proven to have happened ith evidence (because they did happen), then there'd be no need to bias the system.

[Rolepgeek]

The areas in which men are 'victims' are results of sexism against women; if rape wasn't so goddamned common, none of that would be an issue, now would it?

That's a bold claim. I'm going to need you to back it up.

It would be a lot more difficult to convince people of fake rape, if real rape wasn't everywhere.

Thank you for giving me an excuse to drop this link. It's been cluttering up one of my tab groups for a while but I felt it would be a waste to never use it anywhere relevant.

So, what exactly are you trying to say here, then? That rape accusations are more likely to be false than true? That the fact that people can be accused of rape so easily isn't a consequence of there being so many instances of real rape? If it wasn't that common, the university wouldn't have set up such a bullshit system of trial. They wouldn't have a reason to.

That there are systems in place to try and manipulate the results to come out as guilty. If there were so many real rapes that could be proven to have happened ith evidence (because they did happen), then there'd be no need to bias the system.

So are you saying that rape doesn't actually happen often then? Careful there Graknorke. That's a can of worms even I don't want to open. Yes, rape is difficult to prove. That's like half the problem with the whole scenario regarding it.

[Frumple]

Anyway, I think it's calm down time for rolepgeek. When you're setting up crude impressions of people who disagree with you and yelling in all caps maybe it's time to evaluate your frame of mind.

Probably won't help, G. Most likely near-future occurrence is the thread getting locked and boss Toad giving go ahead for it to be recreated with an active OP. Nivim hasn't been active since february, and it's kinda' obvious th'thread could stand someone to ride herd on it when folks start shouting and directly attacking people. Things were getting more unstable than usual when UV came in, and m'fairly sure role has done most of what was necessary to sink it. RIP, incredibly inaccurate thread title.

[Neonivek]

THEN WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEP BRINGING UP SEXISM AS IT APPLIES TO MEN?

Well good question there are multiple reasons for this.

1) A lot of people handle equality in a male and female capacity, rather then just one gender. Believing that true equality is obtained when the issues of both sexes are handled. Most forms of feminism, for example, believes in this.
2) Some people do not believe that the severity of the one groups problem completely occludes the issues of another.
3) Issues that affect women usually have male counter parts (For example Violence towards females with the violent male expectation)

No one has tried to devalue the issues women face or anyone's need above theirs.

But more importantly

4) The conversation has constantly been steered towards how men cannot understand sexism and barely experience or see it and that their opinions on such should be considered lesser. That a woman's pain runs deeper than any man's. It begs this kind of conversation. Most people won't take it at face value.

So are you saying that rape doesn't actually happen often then?

Red Herring