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[Neonivek]

scriver you have to remember that Anita originally opened herself up to this "Free for all" during her kickstarter.

She censors comments but only ones that agree with her point of view, ignoring all ones that might disagree no matter how well written and neutral.

This is of course intentional.

The original Free for all was SO it would get an overflow of hate and bile to legitimize it for the kickstarter. While the picking and choosing is there to legitimize it. She has done videos before now, so it isn't unknown.

It comes off as dishonest. Now this has no bearing on how legitimate her videos are (and I can no longer comment on the videos as that interferes with "not my problem") but it does flavor them for those who would want to discuss it in non-praise or who kind of knew what kind of controversy she intentionally drawn to herself.

[palsch]

She censors comments but only ones that agree with her point of view, ignoring all ones that might disagree no matter how well written and neutral.

Erm, no. Comments are closed entirely on all her videos and on her main site. People are free to write whatever the hell they want elsewhere on the net, but I'm not aware of any space she or anyone associated with her group manages which has comments, censored/moderated/biased or otherwise.

[Rolepgeek]

Your right, the, I suppose. Sexism doesn't exist anymore. It's been solved! Hallelujah! It's not like women get paid less than men on average. It's not like you can go through your collection of games yourself if you'd like and count the number of male main characters and female main characters and come up lopsided.

And you're right, you being male doesn't have anything to do with those things. It has far more to do with how you interpret the things you see, and hear. I don't feel a sense of hypocrisy because this happens all the time. You guys are trying to tell a woman that there isn't sexism. You are not exposed to the same amount that a woman would be. Thus, you are wrong to try to tell her that. You understand why that is, right?

But alright, let me give you an example. All examples are pieces of anecdotal evidence, but this one is interesting. The Elliot Rodger mass shooting. Now, he killed a bunch of people, claiming it was because he was smart, he had the good grades, why couldn't he get a girlfriend? Now, this is sexist, but it's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is how the news was constantly going 'whatever caused this, we shal never know, we could never have predicted it!' Except we should have been able to. He had a blog, social media, a crapton of things where he talked about how he was going to go out and kill women, how he hated them for not going out with him, etc. And it was lost in the background noise, of the thousands of blogs like that, out there, right now. People were talking about 'that could have been me...right up to the shooting part'. That's why this country(if not the world, but it's pretty damn bad in America) is sexist, in so many ways.

And Graknorke, I was trying to avoid looking like that, which is why I said 'of how bad it is'. You people not believing it basically means one of two things. Either it doesn't exist, which I don't see how anyone can believe is true, or it's so deeply ingrained that you pass over it because that's the norm to you, and therefore not noticable or sexist; it's just daily life for women to have to worry about getting raped if they go home from clubbing by themselves.

Also,as a note, I've been avoiding discussing her videos where I can because I've only seen the first one, and the ones relating to sandbox RPGs looked to be rather shoddy. I'm pro-equality, not pro-Sarkeesian.

[Neonivek]

Fine Rolepgeek. I will debate you fully. I no longer give you the benefit of the doubt.

Your right, the, I suppose. Sexism doesn't exist anymore.

Redherring. I didn't imply nor state this

 

It's not like women get paid less than men on average.

Women get paid equal to men in low paying jobs as well as generally choosing lower paying jobs on average (Yeah that surprised me too), and not in the "they chose less worthwhile jobs" I mean they will often go into work in the non-profit stream and make less, there seems to be more of a push for women to get personally gratifying jobs.

What they found while studying how much women earn is while this is still true, it isn't AS true as the raw statistic would make it seem. It is actually a very interesting subject if you look into it.

But aside from that lets skip ahead on the "putting words in my mouth" section.

 

being male doesn't have anything to do with those things. It has far more to do with how you interpret the things you see, and hear

Bias exists, it will always exist and no matter what it will do so. Yet remember..

A woman also has bias, and I could easily say that being a woman means that she will see more bias then is actually there because sexism is more directed towards her, so it is more personal, so she will remember it more.

Yet I never go "Well your a woman, obviously because you are a woman you see sexism when it isn't there and thus I should devalue your opinion out of hand".

I don't feel a sense of hypocrisy because this happens all the time.

If you don't feel a sense of hypocrisy because it simply happens often. It simply means you have become blind to the very sexism you are trying to stop. You are blind to simply understanding basic human decency and conversation.

No one respects someone who doesn't respect them back. Why would a man respect a debate where they are ousted for being a man?

 

You guys are trying to tell a woman that there isn't sexism.

Redherring. No one is saying that

 

You are not exposed to the same amount that a woman would be.

Not all women have the same experiences. As well the question is whether or not we are exposed to the same amount of sexism presented in a form of media, in which case men would be simply by virtue of using same media.

Thus, you are wrong to try to tell her that. You understand why that is, right?

Redherring.

. All examples are pieces of anecdotal evidence, but this one is interesting. The Elliot Rodger mass shooting. Now, he killed a bunch of people, claiming it was because he was smart, he had the good grades, why couldn't he get a girlfriend? Now, this is sexist, but it's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is how the news was constantly going 'whatever caused this, we shal never know, we could never have predicted it!' Except we should have been able to. He had a blog, social media, a crapton of things where he talked about how he was going to go out and kill women, how he hated them for not going out with him, etc. And it was lost in the background noise, of the thousands of blogs like that, out there, right now. People were talking about 'that could have been me...right up to the shooting part'. That's why this country(if not the world, but it's pretty damn bad in America) is sexist, in so many ways

That is typical regardless of whether or not there was gender related hate. If you study psychopaths you will find that many of them had blogs about how they hated one group, how they hurt animals, or what have you and often these went completely unnoticed until after the shooting.

That isn't an indication of sexism because at no point does sexism enter your story. It is about some loser who felt like an outcast and blamed it on women because they spurned his advances (probably because he was a loser). It would have occurred in a completely unsexist society.

Trust me actual psychos who target women, tend to get their stuff brought out. Then again I live in Canada where there is actually a day of the year where we mourn a killing of several women by a murderer (they were engineering students I believe). Now that story was quite a bit more about sexism.

[Rolepgeek]

The difference is, in an unsexist society, such a blog would be abnormal,and therefore noticed. Instead, it was lost in the background radiation of hate. And people died.

So, let me ask you now, since obviously I don't understand: What is the point you are trying to make? That sexism isn't as bad as it seems, and therefore we shouldn't try to do something about it? That sexism isn't as bad as it seems, end of discussion? I don't understand what your viewpoint is, beyond 'let's poke holes in this debate!'.

You have a very cynical view of this whole thing, don't you? I'm not saying we'll ever be entirely rid of bias. But we can reduce the amount to something manageable, associated with fringe groups and weird cultists, rather than everyday life. Wouldn't that be better for everyone?

Additionally you said a woman would remember it more. It had to happen in the first place for her to remember it more. Therefore, she is more cognizant of the actual amount of sexism going on. As for beign exposed to sexism via media, a man is less likely to take notice, because they don't feel particularly uncomfortable when they see it unless they're aware of the implications and associations various tropes and sexist values have with them, and may not notice them in the first place.

[Neonivek]

What is the point you are trying to make? That sexism isn't as bad as it seems, and therefore we shouldn't try to do something about it? That sexism isn't as bad as it seems, end of discussion? I don't understand what your viewpoint is, beyond 'let's poke holes in this debate!'

It is that it isn't as bad as it seems... and as such it is much more open to change. That we can probably in this generation get videogames under control. That we shouldn't be so overwhelmingly pessimistic because if you honestly bought into the pessimism it simply means that it is pointless. Instead we should think cautiously optimistically.

That we should be eliminating hyperbole and labels so we can go more in depth in these debates. Since while things like "Objectifying" and "Sexualization" were very helpful in constructing the vocabulary requires so people could enter the debate without needing perfect elocution, it has also become one of the ways in which these debates have become more limited and often erroneous as people will often use them with little thought. That we should instead expand on our thoughts instead of using these words.

That you shouldn't be so hard on men because human decency is what is ultimately going to solve the problem. Being sexist because "sexism against women is a problem" is not fixing the problem it is compounding it because men don't like being treated the very same way sexists treat women and react to it the very same way those women would. Treat men the way you would treat any other women, that their opinion matters and even if you don't agree with it, it has value and is valid.

That people can have differing views on the very same issues and both can be right. Many people do live in places where sexism isn't so in your face and others do live in places where a woman is likely going to be stalked by some creep on the internet. They aren't wrong, they are speaking about their immediate surroundings.

That just because someone says a dissenting view or says something isn't "that bad" or disagrees with a point doesn't mean they are agreeing with sexism or arguing that sexism "isn't a big deal". As well assume that when someone says something that sounds like it COULD be sexist, give them the benefit of the doubt because 90% of the time that isn't what they meant and if it is that 10% they will sink their own ship.

and heck, why even get mad at someone who thinks sexism isn't a big deal? Educate don't lecture. The "isn't a big deal" crowd are usually people FOR change in videogames and are ALREADY on your side and doing their part. Their stance is that they don't need to take larger action in order for change to occur, that simply knowing these opinions and informing their buying choices, voting choices, as well as what they will eventually teach to their children will change things for the better.

[Rolepgeek]

Alright, I can agree with most of that. But then why argue against her videos? They're meant to educate and inform, like you said.

And as for the part I don't agree with; if someone says something that could be construed as sexist, then it's quite possible that it will hurt someone who hears it if they take it that way. So by calling them out on it, whether they intended to be sexist or not, they can change their behaviour and not do so again.

[Neonivek]

Alright, I can agree with most of that. But then why argue against her videos? They're meant to educate and inform, like you said.

And as for the part I don't agree with; if someone says something that could be construed as sexist, then it's quite possible that it will hurt someone who hears it if they take it that way. So by calling them out on it, whether they intended to be sexist or not, they can change their behaviour and not do so again.

For the first part. I don't disagree with her videos as a whole, I just don't agree with everything she says. I am discussing what I liked, didn't like, agreed, and disagreed with in trying to gain a more overall view of the topic as well as just because the entire point of this is to have these discussions.

As for the second part. I see it as a necessary evil. Sure someone might get offended, but it is worth it for the sake of civil conversation. If you want to keep people from being offended, just ask them to clarify. Then give them a way they could have said it better.

Many a time have I had a hard time saying something only for someone to say "I think Neonivek meant this" and it was what I meant. So I learned how to say it better.

[Sheb]

Rolepgeek: Becayse while well-meaning, she makes a terrible job of educating.

[Rolepgeek]

Mmmmm, alright. I suppose that makes sense(particularly since I think that's more or less what i meant, though I don't see why certain statements that might be sexist are necessary for civil conversation).

I don't really want to get involved in video discussion yet, so I think I'll lurk for the time being then, until it starts getting into general debate about sexism again.

@Sheb: Eh, I suppose. I hold the view that everyone should try to educate, not rely on others to do so, anyway, so meh. At least she's trying; that's better than nothing, for sure.

[palsch]

That just because someone says a dissenting view or says something isn't "that bad" or disagrees with a point doesn't mean they are agreeing with sexism or arguing that sexism "isn't a big deal". As well assume that when someone says something that sounds like it COULD be sexist, give them the benefit of the doubt because 90% of the time that isn't what they meant and if it is that 10% they will sink their own ship.

and heck, why even get mad at someone who thinks sexism isn't a big deal? Educate don't lecture. The "isn't a big deal" crowd are usually people FOR change in videogames and are ALREADY on your side and doing their part. Their stance is that they don't need to take larger action in order for change to occur, that simply knowing these opinions and informing their buying choices, voting choices, as well as what they will eventually teach to their children will change things for the better.

Now Neon, I know you don't always come across the way you intended, but this is what I'm getting from this;

We don't need to do anything about sexism. It isn't much of a problem, most of it that is experienced isn't real/intended, and most people generally agree.

Which is basically why you think everyone should shut up about it?

[Neonivek]

No I am saying that people who are basically "We don't need to do anything" are usually actually doing something. They aren't "part of the problem" as much as they would seem on paper because they aren't doing nothing they are doing "nothing".

Which is basically why you think everyone should shut up about it?

No... I am saying that we should try to stop bashing people for having differing opinions. As well as giving reasons why bashing in the first place isn't very logical if you open up their points of view.

Disagree, disagree with a passion. Talk about it, debate it. Yet draw the line on actually attacking someone.

[Rolepgeek]

Little late, there, greatorder. Yes, I was riled up. This sort of thing riles me up. It does so for a reason, the reason being it's actual people actually being affected by this sort of thing, and when people don't acknowledge it as a problem, it makes me want to pull my hair out from frustration. I did not intend to construct strawmen, i may have been bringing up things people didn't say because I thought that's what they appeared to be saying, and as for hypocrisy...meh. Everyone's a hypocrite, I'll admit I am too. The difference is what's it about, or something like that. I dunno. I'm tired now, and I woke up like an hour ago. >.>

[Neonivek]

I don't mind hypocrisy so long as it serves a purpose, I mean a drug user who says "don't do drugs" is a hypocrite but that isn't a bad thing... but hypocrisy that hurts the very point it was trying to make is an issue.

When you use the very same tactics you decry others for using, you are essentially validating it and creating the very same environment you are fighting to eliminate.

[palsch]

No... I am saying that we should try to stop bashing people for having differing opinions. As well as giving reasons why bashing in the first place isn't very logical if you open up their points of view.

Disagree, disagree with a passion. Talk about it, debate it. Yet draw the line on actually attacking someone.

Here's the problem though. When Vector outlined some personal experience of sexism she had UltraValican dismiss her experience as invalid (couldn't tell if he thought she was lying or just deluded somehow...) and you label her as an 'outsider' to gaming culture. Now even if you didn't mean that in the way she took it (eg, literally) it's still pretty typical of the sexist dismissal typical to women involved in this sort of conversation.

Yet when someone suggests that maybe men don't notice sexism as much as women because it's not usually directed at men, that's 'bashing' and attacking and sexist and unhelpful.