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[Rolan7]

Bones is a good counterexample!

It's still incredibly outnumbered, but it does invalidate my point.

Ooh.
No that is wrong. Actually Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries was also a kick ass series!

Haven't heard of it, but will check it out for sure.

[DJ]

There's also Haven, but I wouldn't really call any SyFy shows mainstream. Miss Marple was also a really good show, but I doubt it ever made it in USA.

[LordBucket]

what do you think of the fact that most media are aimed at men?

1)
I'm not certain I accept that as "fact." It's possible that if one were to collectively add up everything and categorize it that media aimed at men might be the largest group...but I rather doubt it. I would guess that there's probably more gender-neutral media than male media. Probably. I haven't counted, and I'm guessing you haven't either.

Yes, sure..."console games" are probably generally "aimed" at men, but for example, I would say that "soap operas" are generally aimed at women. Talk radio is probably generally aimed at men, but romance novels are probably generally aimed at women.

Also, there's a lot of gender-neutral stuff. For example, horror novels. Are those "aimed" at men? Are they "aimed" at women? I'm guessing probably not. Saturday morning cartoons, men or women? No, again...I think that's pretty gender neutral. Sitcoms? Gender neutral. Newspaper comics? Gender neutral. Sure, there are trends and exceptions. Garfield is a newspaper comic that is arguably intended for men. But then Rose is Rose is arguably intended for women. Overall? I think newspaper comics lean towards gender neutral.

I don't personally perceive an overwhelming bias one way or another.


2)
It's possible that if one were to account for everything, "male oriented" media might be the largest group. But, simply by virtue of how math works, it's very likely that some group probably gets the most. With as much content as there is, the odds of things being exactly even are fairly small. If "female" content outnumbered "male" content, I don't think I would be bothered by that. I see no great value to "enforcing equal representation." If it's 30% female-oriented, 40% male-oriented and 30% gender-neutral...I don't have a problem with that. If it were 40% female, 30% male and 30% gender-neutral, I wouldn't have a problem with that either. One side or the other is probably going to end up getting more than the other...and that's ok. It's not a competition.

3)
Ultimately, I think it's not very important. For example, I watch My Little Pony. If you look on the left, you'll see that I'm wearing a Princess Celestia avatar. Clearly, pretty pony princesses were not something that was "aimed" at me. Nevertheless, I enjoy it. I'm sure you can relate to that. Quite a few of the games on your list were probably "aimed" at men. Nevertheless, you enjoyed them, right? So...what's the problem?

It's far more important to me that good content be produced, than than "male/female" content be produced. If people want "more" of something I don't particularly have a problem with that, but I see a much more severe scarcity of good material than I see a scarcity of "by gender" material.

[Max White]

There's also Haven, but I wouldn't really call any SyFy shows mainstream. Miss Marple was also a really good show, but I doubt it ever made it in USA.

Haven't seen Haven, but Miss Marple was kind of droll for me.
There is also Medium, that one was really popular.

[Vector]

What exactly would be a woman-focused or a gender neutral show? Bonus points if you describe it without using any of the women stereotypes you hate so much.

Let's see... at least three or four female characters, two viewpoint, two on the side, with at least two of those having narratives focused on themselves and their own development as people.  These characters would necessarily have a variety of relationships (I don't necessarily mean romantic) with other female characters, and all four of them would perform a variety of roles in the program.

I guess Parks and Rec would be a good example?  I haven't seen it, but it seems like the hat fits.  The fact that there's, yes, a couple of narratives with female leads does not mean that we've got anything like equality.  If you're looking for them, they're scarce.

PS: I win.


Bucket:

Yeah, you know how horror stuff always has the virgin and the whore, and how the whore dies and the virgin is the last one standing until she finally succumbs?  That's not a neutral narrative at all.

At this point, I really don't want to argue anymore.  There's an enormous scarcity of narratives biased towards women that don't trade on the most narrow and isolating viewpoint of the demographic.  I think you need to pay more attention to the water you're swimming in.

[Cheeetar]

3)
Ultimately, I think it's not very important. For example, I watch My Little Pony. If you look on the left, you'll see that I'm wearing a Princess Celestia avatar. Clearly, pretty pony princesses were not something that was "aimed" at me.

It's interesting that the current incarnation of My Little Pony was a direct result of the writer and creative director wanting to write something that wasn't just dross aimed at selling merchandise to young female children. You'd think that you would appreciate the desire for more creative stuff, even if it meant not relying on the historically popular (and very strongly gender locked) cliches that most media perpetuates.

[DJ]

No, I win! Can we now proceed to throwing rocks at each other?

[Max White]

Let's see... at least three or four female characters, two viewpoint, two on the side, with at least two of those having narratives focused on themselves and their own development as people.  These characters would necessarily have a variety of relationships (I don't necessarily mean romantic) with other female characters, and all four of them would perform a variety of roles in the program.

I guess Parks and Rec would be a good example?  I haven't seen it, but it seems like the hat fits.  The fact that there's, yes, a couple of narratives with female leads does not mean that we've got anything like equality.  If you're looking for them, they're scarce.

So assuming that the same rules apply for a male oriented show, I'm having a bit of trouble thinking of male shows that qualify. I mean granted I don't watch a huge amount of tv, but still. Death Note counts, but if we are going into anime you are also going to have a much easier time finding female shows too. Short of that... I'm kind of drawing a blank.

Though for reference I can't think of any non-anime female shows that follow those criteria either.

[Rolan7]

3)
Ultimately, I think it's not very important. For example, I watch My Little Pony. If you look on the left, you'll see that I'm wearing a Princess Celestia avatar. Clearly, pretty pony princesses were not something that was "aimed" at me. Nevertheless, I enjoy it. I'm sure you can relate to that. Quite a few of the games on your list were probably "aimed" at men. Nevertheless, you enjoyed them, right? So...what's the problem?

It's far more important to me that good content be produced, than than "male/female" content be produced. If people want "more" of something I don't particularly have a problem with that, but I see a much more severe scarcity of good material than I see a scarcity of "by gender" material.

Well, yeah.  According to http://www.bronystudy.com/id1.html , 86% of bronies surveyed are male.  That's separate from the viewership of MLP, of course, but we're bronies.  MLP isn't sexist against men anyway, and even if it was, it wouldn't justify the fact that 6-7 of those top shows are dominated by men, and the other 3 are talent shows with balanced casts.

This sounds like the sorta thing words like "privilege" were created for.

[DJ]

No crime show would qualify because crime shows are plot driven rather character driven.

[Neonivek]

Rolan was just saying how there's no female leads in crime shows, they're always relegated to sidekicks for the male leads.

That isn't true... I can think of quite a few where there are female leads who aren't the side kick.

Admittingly since most of the crime shows I can think of are court dramas... that may explain it.

with at least two of those having narratives focused on themselves and their own development as people

I have rarely seen this in television. Even shows with continuity tend to stay within some sort of characterization bubble where the characters are just utterly static.

MLP isn't sexist against men anyway

Yeah that is actually one of its more unusual traits for a show with an overwhelming female focus.

Is that... Men are just men. The closest thing to even breaking that is the episode that involved an older brother protector mentality.

I mean even in Jem the male characters were always punching eachother and Rio was just a pawn in Jem's little web of lies.

[Rolan7]

what do you think of the fact that most media are aimed at men?

1)
I'm not certain I accept that as "fact." It's possible that if one were to collectively add up everything and categorize it that media aimed at men might be the largest group...but I rather doubt it. I would guess that there's probably more gender-neutral media than male media. Probably. I haven't counted, and I'm guessing you haven't either.

Yes, sure..."console games" are probably generally "aimed" at men, but for example, I would say that "soap operas" are generally aimed at women. Talk radio is probably generally aimed at men, but romance novels are probably generally aimed at women.

Also, there's a lot of gender-neutral stuff. For example, horror novels. Are those "aimed" at men? Are they "aimed" at women? I'm guessing probably not. Saturday morning cartoons, men or women? No, again...I think that's pretty gender neutral. Sitcoms? Gender neutral. Newspaper comics? Gender neutral. Sure, there are trends and exceptions. Garfield is a newspaper comic that is arguably intended for men. But then Rose is Rose is arguably intended for women. Overall? I think newspaper comics lean towards gender neutral.

I don't personally perceive an overwhelming bias one way or another.

For tv shows and movies we have the Bechdel Test, which (while not a perfect indication of sexism by ANY means) does point out a massive disparity between serious male roles and female ones.  It's not balanced whatsoever.

[DJ]

So which exact major shows fail this test?

[Neonivek]

The Bechdel Test only works somewhat...

It was easy to find why it doesn't work (mostly because most shows only have three main characters, and two of them MUST share a gender. Whenever there are more then these three it is because they are in groups)

So which exact major shows fail this test?

Most episodes of Adventure Time fail it.

Actually I am trying to think of an episode that passes it. I mean Bubblegum and Marceline do talk to eachother about "not a guy" but at the same time they weren't in a room alone together.

As well the Cake and Fionna episode (written by a woman) fails it because when Cake and Fiona are alone they are talking about a guy.

[DJ]

Hm, you're right, they should make two of the princesses main characters to balance out Finn and Jake.