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[Neonivek]

Ehh I prefer my test, it doesn't allow a game's total lack of story to alter the test.

Did this target a non-male character?

This targeted a LOT of male characters... the King of every land.

[Ogdibus]

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[penguinofhonor]

Yeah, I don't think dialogue works in games. Not only are there many games with too little, there are also games with too much.

A lot of RPGs and stuff have more character interaction than you'd see in any movie or book because the creators can put it in optional sidequests and stuff. Various RPGs qualify for this. If the only Bechdel-passing interaction is off in some optional scene 90% of players will never see, I'm not sure if it should count.

Games are just way more variable in this department than movies are. You can see this in movies - people debate whether particularly artsy films that have little to no dialogue pass - it's just more common in games because dialogue isn't quite as much of a constant.

[Neonivek]

When depictions of agency always coincide with being a villain, it's indicative of a problem.

It is mostly due to the limited story structure in a videogame. If you arn't the Protagonist or the villain (and even then villains tended not to do anything either) you likely can't do anything.

people debate whether particularly artsy films that have little to no dialogue pass - it's just more common in games because dialogue isn't quite as much of a constant.

I think what is important is we understand that the Bechdel test is just a test that helps as an indicator but not something that can be used as the one size fits all. Certainly there are a lot of movies, shows, books, and games that outright fail the test but pass on the intent, while there are others that pass but fail the intent.

To me it was never made as a true test.

Heck there is another "gender equality" test where you see if you can gender swap all the characters and the dialog still works (With only names and minor things altered). Most videogames pass that easily. Mostly because gender tends not to be very important in videogames.

[Solifuge]

Yeah, you're probably going to have to approach testing gender representation in games in a very different way than in other media.

Let's try something with Super Mario Bros. 3:

1) Did a female character affect the gameplay in a meaningful way?
(A: Peach was kidnapped to act as MacGuffin) (B: Peach offered Mario powerups via letters) (C: Wendy Koopa captured the Water Kingdom and acted as its boss)

2) Did the character do this of her own volition?
(A: Nope, Bowser did it to her) (B: Yes, she snuck the letters out despite capture) (C: Nope, she did this because Bowser told her to)

3) Did this target a non-male character?
(A/B: Nope, just Mario) (C: Nope, just Mario and the King of Water Land, who she turned into a Kappa)

Ehh I prefer my test, it doesn't allow a game's total lack of story to alter the test.

It's not perfect, but actually it even works in games with no story at all, being that it's based on gameplay effects. Mechanics that allow one character (or enemy) to affect another are the fundamental component which all games share, much the same way communication is a fundamental component for just about every story ever.

It basically measures a female character's importance to the game, and their ability to affect or change the game's outcome.

Of course, it doesn't work in games like Tetris, but Tetris is a game without any characters at all, so it's not really at odds here.

[Max White]

Although sometimes games can have specific sexist elements that don't relate to plot or characters at all.
For example, I don't mind sexulisation, that is putting characters in some what revealing clothing. We have been doing this since ancient Greeks made nude sculptures of their idealized humans, both male and female.
But you have to be fair about it. When an armor set on a male is huge platemail, and the same set on a female is pretty much a metal bra, that is the wrong way to go about it. Why can't the female character wear realistic armor should she so choose? Why can't the guy run around half naked in an attempt to be visually pleasing to women?
You can have women in revealing outfits. That alone isn't sexist. It is when you decide that women must wear revealing outfits that it is sexist.

[Neonivek]

Although sometimes games can have specific sexist elements that don't relate to plot or characters at all.
For example, I don't mind sexulisation, that is putting characters in some what revealing clothing. We have been doing this since ancient Greeks made nude sculptures of their idealized humans, both male and female.
But you have to be fair about it. When an armor set on a male is huge platemail, and the same set on a female is pretty much a metal bra, that is the wrong way to go about it. Why can't the female character wear realistic armor should she so choose? Why can't the guy run around half naked in an attempt to be visually pleasing to women?
You can have women in revealing outfits. That alone isn't sexist. It is when you decide that women must wear revealing outfits that it is sexist.

That fits under what I call "Using sexuality against a female character".

How many of the "Metal Bikini" women are women who could honestly be wearing Metal Bikinis? None of them.

They ALL should be competent enough to know to wear real armor.

It is why I try to seperate sexual characters (sexualised characters who are sexual) from sexualised characters (Sexualised characters who are not sexual).

Of course there are terrible sexual characters who are just as bad... the VAST majority of characters of sexualised characters in videogames are ones who shouldn't be.

How much fanservice is by a woman who wants to give fanservice versus a female who isn't about fanservice?

This difference helps form the idea of a sexual female character existing in an inoffensive form (since like men, women are also sexual creatures) while at the same time understanding why sexualisation of women in videogames is so terrible... because it is against their character/competency/sanity.

[i2amroy]

But you have to be fair about it. When an armor set on a male is huge platemail, and the same set on a female is pretty much a metal bra, that is the wrong way to go about it. Why can't the female character wear realistic armor should she so choose? Why can't the guy run around half naked in an attempt to be visually pleasing to women?

Sexualize all the armor equally! (Surprisingly enough when I googled "sexy male armor" I got a large number of responses from Tera, one of the largest female armor offenders out there  )

Side Note: The use of the surprised smiley followed by a close paren looks like a smiley with a big nose.

[Ogdibus]

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[Neonivek]

Sexualize all the armor equally!

NO! DEAR GOODNESS NO!

As I said the biggest problem with the "Chainmail bikini" is that it is sexualisation AGAINST the character. Just adding it to males only gives us too much terrible armor.

[alexandertnt]

I think Bechdel test was designed to be made so hard to fail (just throw in two women who talk about the weather, for example) that when alot of ficiton fails, its pretty suggestive of some form of gender bias.

So a healthy distribution of passes/fails wouldnt be 50/50, but something like 90 pass 10 fail, due to how easy it should be to pass.

I understand what Neonivek means when justifying "sexyness", for example if a game had a strip-bar scene one would expect sexualised women in it. But it could still nonetheless suggest some form gender bias in the industry if most games have scenes in strip bars.

[Max White]

Sexualize all the armor equally!

NO! DEAR GOODNESS NO!

As I said the biggest problem with the "Chainmail bikini" is that it is sexualisation AGAINST the character. Just adding it to males only gives us too much terrible armor.

Do you mean to imply that revealing clothing is immoral?
That there us a dress code that should be enforced on the characters?

[Ogdibus]

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[Vector]

I like full suits because I am turned on by more clothing than less.

Deal with it.

[Neonivek]

Do you mean to imply that revealing clothing is immoral?
That there us a dress code that should be enforced on the characters?

No I am suggesting that when you sexualise a character "against" their character what you are creating is dissonance with the narrative in order to create fanservice.

Is there a reason that the guy is wearing a Chainmail Banana Hammock that shows off his endowment? Or do you just want to show off his package?

The idea of using sexuality against a character is the idea of sexualising something that shouldn't be sexualised because their characterisation doesn't support it. It is in otherwords forced sexualisation.

I understand what Neonivek means when justifying "sexyness", for example if a game had a strip-bar scene one would expect sexualised women in it. But it could still nonetheless suggest some form gender bias in the industry if most games have scenes in strip bars

Yes but remember I also said that the vast majority of "sexyness" isn't by strippers it is by nurses who are dressed like a stripper.