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[Max White]

The real problem I see is that something like 95% of games return False, both for the male and female versions of the test (excluding the hero screaming "NOOOOO!!!!" and the villain's evil laughter in response). Most games just don't have any interactions between two real characters at all, since the only real interactions in the game occur between a voiceless protagonist and a flat caricature of a villager/shopkeeper. In fact for those games that do return True to the test the majority that I can think of return True for both the male and female test.

See I'm thinking of games like say, The Binding of Issac, where there is pretty much no meaningful interaction at all. It fails this test hard. Would the solution be to add two female characters to have a conversation about some topic just to pass this test?

The Bechdel test was designed for movies and books that have a lot of character interaction, rather than games with very little.

I think a better test would be 'Is there a female character that amounts to nothing more then a thing to be collected, and a male character that does amount to more than a collection of thing collecting utilities?'

[Vector]

Eh, I don't think that works, because the fact that we have an overwhelming majority for man as collector and woman as thing to be collected isn't good either.  I don't have a proposed alteration, though.  Need to think about this some.

[Neonivek]

Well Max that test doesn't work either.

Even in the original Mario was Princess Peach not a "think to be collected". In fact very few games I can think of had you collect women (Spelunky an this other game)

Eh, I don't think that works, because the fact that we have an overwhelming majority for man as collector and woman as thing to be collected isn't good either.  I don't have a proposed alteration, though.  Need to think about this some.

Honestly don't confuse Anita's word play with how the game is actually set up. Very few games depict the woman as a "thing to collect" and tend to use the "Girlfriend" angle not as a thing that can be objectified but as a easy way to give you something you care about to save.

While I think the metaphor that women are basically "the ball" in these games is true in story structure. I don't agree with the "reducing them to a trophy" aspect when not one of her visuals actually listed "the girlfriend" by anything but their actual names.

[fractalman]

Well Max that test doesn't work either.

Even in the original Mario was Princess Peach not a "think to be collected". In fact very few games I can think of had you collect women (Spelunky an this other game)

Link to the past.  You gather 7 sages, all women, who have been turned into crystals. Zelda is the last on the list.
...
I HAD to mention it. 

[Max White]

Well Max that test doesn't work either.

Even in the original Mario was Princess Peach not a "think to be collected". In fact very few games I can think of had you collect women (Spelunky an this other game)

Well, not collected as in grab multiple ones of them, but pick up on your way out after beating the boss.
Like you would collect your prize from a raffle.

[Neonivek]

Well, not collected as in grab multiple ones of them, but pick up on your way out after beating the boss.
Like you would collect your prize from a raffle

It is kinda hard not to "save them after the boss" when the boss is dirrectly stopping you from saving them.

Yet if what you said is true then Mario wouldn't untie her until he is outside the castle. Except he doesn't, he immediately unties the (usually fake) princess.

[i2amroy]

Well Max that test doesn't work either.

Even in the original Mario was Princess Peach not a "think to be collected". In fact very few games I can think of had you collect women (Spelunky an this other game)

Link to the past.  You gather 7 sages, all women, who have been turned into crystals. Zelda is the last on the list.
...
I HAD to mention it.

To be fair Zelda does spend pretty much the entire first 90% of the game being one of the coolest characters to come out of a Zelda game yet though. In fact the only reason she ever gets trapped in the first place is because the game needs to set up a "final battle one vs one" scenario.

[Ogdibus]

.

[Neonivek]

Even Duke Nukem which outright objectifies never makes the women a "prize" or something to be won or collecting.

It outright harasses you for letting any of them die mind you (usually by spawning aliens)

---

I'd give my test but it only works on games where a female character is
1) Active
2) Has a goal
3) Is competent within the constrants of the medium and level of the protagonists.

Does this female character lose ANY of these three traits because of a male character either dirrectly or indirrectly? (Indirrectly such as the male character being "so uber pro yo" so in being compared to a male character) If she loses any of those three they fail.

That is my test.

Now mind you losing to the villain doesn't nessisarily make you lose the third. In Live-On for example (an anime) the female lead loses to a villain but she loses the third not because she lost but because she suddenly becomes so much more incompetent after that, that the male lead has to boost her up.

As well include a female character being incompetent but having a goal to be competent (but never fulfilling it) as well

I have a lot more anime examples... but Zelda tends to count in all her games as failing that test.

[i2amroy]

Well Max that test doesn't work either.

Even in the original Mario was Princess Peach not a "think to be collected". In fact very few games I can think of had you collect women (Spelunky an this other game)

Link to the past.  You gather 7 sages, all women, who have been turned into crystals. Zelda is the last on the list.
...
I HAD to mention it.

To be fair Zelda does spend pretty much the entire first 90% of the game being one of the coolest characters to come out of a Zelda game yet though. In fact the only reason she ever gets trapped in the first place is because the game needs to set up a "final battle one vs one" scenario.

as a man, though, wasn't she?

Officially I guess so. Personally I was never sure what gender Shiek was supposed to be, and many of the later appearances of Shiek (such as in Super Smash Brothers Melee and later SSBB) give her/him a much more feminine appearance. Also even though the official word is that she was passing herself off as a man, there hasn't been any word on whether or not she actually became one.

[alexandertnt]

I dont think DNF is a very good example of sexism in the game industry. Given how tongue-in-cheek the ultra macho main character was, it is pretty safe to say that it was a silly self-aware parody of these various ideas and an outlier.

[Max White]

Any sufficiently advanced parody is indistinguishable from Duke Nukem.

[Ogdibus]

.

[Neonivek]

As well Duke Nukem has always been a Parody Cake.

To such an extent that honestly... lets face it... some of them weren't really a parody.

[Solifuge]

Yeah, you're probably going to have to approach testing gender representation in games in a very different way than in other media.

Let's try something with Super Mario Bros. 3:

1) Did a female character affect the gameplay in a meaningful way?
(A: Peach was kidnapped to act as MacGuffin) (B: Peach offered Mario powerups via letters) (C: Wendy Koopa captured the Water Kingdom and acted as its boss)

2) Did the character do this of her own volition?
(A: Nope, Bowser did it to her) (B: Yes, she snuck the letters out despite capture) (C: Nope, she did this because Bowser told her to)

3) Did this target a non-male character?
(A/B: Nope, just Mario) (C: Nope, just Mario and the King of Water Land, who she turned into a Kappa)