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[i2amroy]

Just visually then?
Because I prefer playing as female characters when I get the chance, but oversexualization via skimpy costumes and oversized breasts leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
Even a good portion of the games I've played where you can choose a female character and customize them don't allow you to customize them enough to escape that particular ghetto. So after half an hour of trying I give up and play as a male.

So even when you get a choice, you don't really get a choice.

Played any of the Pokemon games since Fire Red/Leaf Green? Those are a perfect example of a "pick your gender" game that provides choice without any overt sexualization.

And yeah, most of the time the customization is just visual, but that's the exact point of what we are trying to accomplish here right? Exact equality for both genders, no leanings towards either side?

As for this:

Just visually then?
Because I prefer playing as female characters when I get the chance, but oversexualization via skimpy costumes and oversized breasts leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
Even a good portion of the games I've played where you can choose a female character and customize them don't allow you to customize them enough to escape that particular ghetto. So after half an hour of trying I give up and play as a male.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bishonen&l=1

'Tis an indiscriminate industry of sexualization of all media out there. Is it brainless? Yes. Sexist? No.

So your argument is "If if can happen to men, it's not sexist?" Well congrats, dude. Sexism is over.

The real problem here is that no matter what you do it is impossible to create something that can be completely labeled "non-sexist". As has been proven time and again, exact equality is impossible to create in a world where people are intrinsically different from one another (an idea that has been explored time and again by borg type villains).

Sexism exists. It's not going to go away, and from what I've seen we've already removed a large portion of what currently exists today (in America at least). Sure there are still the haters and the trolls out there, but I know for a fact that if I go to a place like 4chan and post anything there is going to be at least one person out there that disagrees with me or hates me for it. There is nobody stopping girls from crossing over the the boy's aisle, nor the boys from going to the girl's. And especially in the modern world of the internet, you are completely free to do whatever the heck you want to do. Now that doesn't mean you are going to be successful in your goals, but there is nothing intrinsically stopping you from attempting them.

[Vector]

There is nobody stopping girls from crossing over the the boy's aisle, nor the boys from going to the girl's.

My mother would like to disagree with you

[Loud Whispers]

There is nobody stopping girls from crossing over the the boy's aisle, nor the boys from going to the girl's.

My mother would like to disagree with you

Get behind 7 proxies! BUY ALL THE LEGOS!

[penguinofhonor]

Yeah, I mean, if you consider ridicule and social ostracization "nothing" then I guess you're right.

[Loud Whispers]

Yeah, I mean, if you consider ridicule and social ostracization "nothing" then I guess you're right.

Kids: Aaaarhghu Susan bought the super special awesome ranger cannon lazer rifle destructor
Kids: Shuunnnnnnn
Kids: SHUUNNNNNNNN

Erk... Yes. My point. Modern world, progressive world. Choice. Child. Choose. Change. Progress!

[Solifuge]

Yeah, that kinda ignores social pressures as a whole.

EDIT: Ninja'd x Forever

I was mocked for using my sister's old Barbies in whatever make believe tonka-truck ninja turtles junk I was on about at age 4. Because Barbies were for girls. And I was told this primarily by adults, and then by kids who learned it from those adults.

Dunno if you interact with kids much, LW, but it hasn't changed.

[10ebbor10]

Just visually then?
Because I prefer playing as female characters when I get the chance, but oversexualization via skimpy costumes and oversized breasts leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
Even a good portion of the games I've played where you can choose a female character and customize them don't allow you to customize them enough to escape that particular ghetto. So after half an hour of trying I give up and play as a male.

So even when you get a choice, you don't really get a choice.

Played any of the Pokemon games since Fire Red/Leaf Green? Those are a perfect example of a "pick your gender" game that provides choice without any overt sexualization.

What do you mean?

Nintendo actually changed stuff rather than just switching sprites around? What's the next thing going to be, different plot? Different starters.
*gasps 3D animation ...

[Vector]

Buddy, I sat at the "boy" tables all through elementary school, played with action figures, read comics, wanted a short haircut, and so on and so on and so on.  The other kids were not happy about this, at all.

[i2amroy]

Yeah, I mean, if you consider ridicule and social ostracization "nothing" then I guess you're right.

Personally the only time I have seen sexism occur in modern society is through older generations. Children are intrinsically nonbiased until they are taught to be. As the lyrics from South Pacific go:

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

"Sexism" as was thought of by the Women's liberation movement, has nearly ceased to exist and what does exist is dying off. We have put enough pressures on our society that being sexist or racist or whatever-ist is viewed as bad, and those pressures have succeeded in their goals to eliminate those problems. The feminist movement has already won, sexism is in it's dying throes. The modern generations don't do it in most cases, it is only the older ones that still do. Those who aren't sexist aren't learning to be so, and those who are are mostly entrenched enough to not change, regardless of what you say or do. Time is the only force left to act at this point, in the sense that as the old people die off sexism is removed. I mean we can already see a very large example of this with the group of MLP fans. They are a large group of people crossing the border of what we view as gender specific, and they've thrived. Or how about just a week ago there was a fairly large news story about a group of high school girls that wanted to play football, and the school district gave in and let them? IMO we are past the point where we need to argue about how sexist things are, since they are already changing, and nothing we do except wait will allow them to change faster.

[Loud Whispers]

Dunno if you interact with kids much, LW, but it hasn't changed.

Eh, who's expecting massive societal gender expectations to calm the fuck down in a decade? Progress every small increment of the way is what... Causes progress really.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Vector]

The modern generations don't do it in most cases, it is only the older ones that still do.

I think this is just slightly idealistic.

[Glowcat]

"Sexism" as was thought of by the Women's liberation movement, has nearly ceased to exist and what does exist is dying off. We have put enough pressures on our society that being sexist or racist or whatever-ist is viewed as bad, and those pressures have succeeded in their goals to eliminate those problems. The feminist movement has already won, sexism is in it's dying throes. The modern generations don't do it in most cases, it is only the older ones that still do. Those who aren't sexist aren't learning to be so, and those who are are mostly entrenched enough to not change, regardless of what you say or do. Time is the only force left to act at this point, in the sense that as the old people die off sexism is removed. I mean we can already see a very large example of this with the group of MLP fans. They are a large group of people crossing the border of what we view as gender specific, and they've thrived. Or how about just a week ago there was a fairly large news story about a group of high school girls that wanted to play football, and the school district gave in and let them? IMO we are past the point where we need to argue about how sexist things are, since they are already changing, and nothing we do except wait will allow them to change faster.

I'm confused by what you intend to argue. That the pressures against sexism have led to sexism dying, and thus we should stop those pressures before it's dead? That a few examples of progress mean we should just drop the issue because it'll resolve itself? Time isn't a healer of all wounds. Some wounds need medication to heal and stopping that medication prematurely will only make the problem worse.

[GlyphGryph]

And to reiterate my stance on sexist tropes: I deny they exist. All it takes is to reverse the genders playing the roles and it's fine again? It never was  problem to begin with then. There is a clear line between sexism and old themes.

There is no reverse gender trope for any of your examples. If a reverse trendered trope emerged, then yes, it would still be sexist.

You seem to be fundamentally incapable of understanding the different between a narrarrative element and a trope though.

Mario rescuing Peach is not sexist, anymore then Peach rescuing Mario in the reverse version. The trope of the damsel in distress IS sexist, and Mario rescuing Peach is an example of that trope. There is no trope for strong, heroic women rescuing a weak and helpless male with no sense of agency. It doesn't exist. It may happen occassionally, yes, but it is not a trope.

It could be a subversion of the existing trope, sure, but it is not a trope in its own right. So let me repeat this, in the hopes that you will be able to figure out what the actual problem is here: It is not the occurrence that is sexist. It is not the intent that is sexist. It is the societal, cultural force that arises when those occurrences are promoted to the standing of trope that are sexist.

It is not sexist for the male hero to rescue the damsel in distress. It is sexist for that to be the standard - and it would, in fact, be equally sexist in reverse!

You keep denying sexist tropes exist, but have yet to provide a single shred of evidence against the existence or sexism of the sexist trope "damsel in distress", though you seem to think you have. At this point, I am only able to realistically interpret what you are saying as "I do not know what a trope is, nor do I understand what sexism is." And okay, maybe that's true. But let's be clear - you appear to be operating from a position of ignorance. There are valid arguments you could actually be making here, if you really do want to oppose this line of thought, but you're going to have to actually understand the topics being discussed before you can get to those...

[Solifuge]

Dunno if you interact with kids much, LW, but it hasn't changed.

Eh, who's expecting massive societal gender expectations to calm the fuck down in a decade? Progress every small increment of the way is what... Causes progress really.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Note those all came from one catalogue, and it wasn't Amurrican. Meanwhile, check the top bar on the Toys R Us webpage, which clearly segregates the Girls' and Boys' Toys.

Every bit helps, yeah... but I agree that it ain't going away any time soon. The unfortunate part is that toys and such that inform how we interact with others our age, what activities we can take part in, and what aspirations we are "supposed" to have. Who gets to play nerf war, build cities, and race cars, versus who gets to brush hair, cook plastic food, and walk froo froo robodogs?

Even the expected manner of play implies agency, or lack-thereof. Boys get racetracks and little cars to race on them, which they can project themselves onto. Girls get a toy car that their Barbie gets to drive around, with their help.

EDIT: Of course, there are exceptions.

[Loud Whispers]

Well I can't speak for Murrica so I speak from what's familiar to me. And there wasn't that in my childhood so that's about it really. If you're educating your children while both giving them and not educating them on the differences between reality/fantasy about games that are hyper-sexualized, sexism is probably going to occur, for silly, obvious reasons. Children see differences in everything, people are no exceptions. When children are told people are the same despite evidence to the contrary without telling why, children are going to start making their own preconceived notions. If they take that one step further, prejudice!