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[Neonivek]

But then if it is satire of sexism it is not sexism

You didn't get it this isn't a satire it is "Parody cake".

Think of it like the excuse of blacksploitation that they are "making fun of the steriotypes"... Yes they are but they are also reinforcing those steriotypes and trying to appeal to both those who dislike and those who like those steriotypes.

A "Satire cake" of sexism satires sexism while at the same time reinforcing it.

[Loud Whispers]

A "Satire cake" of sexism satires sexism while at the same time reinforcing it.

How could it possibly be reinforcing it?

[Glowcat]

Avicenna himself falls into a few traps. One important one is that Anita talks in that video about playing videos games in her youth so I have no idea where he gets the idea she started later in life, and the other biggie is when he says that the tropes were simply passed down and there wasn't an plan to oppress women. This is something that a lot of people seem to struggle with: sexism doesn't have to be some sinister plot by the oppressor class to keep women down.

Well, there wasn't a plan. It was a system enforced by gender roles that kept ancient society out-competing others. Sexism need only be prejudice, but the prejudice is being invented where there is none now.

As I just said: no, it doesn't. Most forms of sexism are done unconsciously and are a result of existing systems. They are the crime of the status quo, not necessarily misogynists within society although misogyny tends to spread because of sexism.

[Neonivek]

A "Satire cake" of sexism satires sexism while at the same time reinforcing it.

How could it possibly be reinforcing it?

You ever watch those anti-drug commercials that seem to glorify the drugs while saying they are bad at the same time? It is kinda like that.

Saying that these steriotypes are bad while at the same time glamourising them and reinforcing them.

[Soadreqm]

Well no, Damsel in distress isn't an inherantly sexist trope. I know this because it isn't sexist when a male is in that role either (Dang it Wally!).

Except "damsel" kind of implies "female". Like, that's literally what "damsel" means. A girl. I guess it all depends on your definition of "trope". If tropes are something that can ALWAYS be gender-flipped EVERY TIME, then they cannot be sexist. Contrariwise, if tropes can be sexist, it is not always possible to gender-flip roles and have it remain the same trope. That's not really relevant to the Youtube videos, though, since it's pretty obvious that when that chick making them speaks of the "Damsel in Distress trope", she means "that thing where girls are always helpless and get abducted and boys have to save them and never the other way around". You can disagree with her definition, but that's different from disagreeing with the thing she's actually talking about.

People can pick and choose whatever it is they identify with - at the end of the day their actions are theirs' responsibility alone. Authors, game designers and whatever should not be restricted to whatever conforms to accepted societal standards because it may influence people to x. This is perhaps the most fortunate part of the videos being redundant - sexism is not socially endorsed.

I would argue that if someone feels that authors and game designers don't conform to her societal standards, she has every right to pitch a fit. The media doesn't have to deliver what people want, but neither do people have to quietly accept what the media delivers.

[Neonivek]

If tropes are something that can ALWAYS be gender-flipped EVERY TIME, then they cannot be sexist

Dear goodness no... The Manwhore is just as offensive as its flip for example... I still don't understand why the Manwhore appeals to soo many people... but whatever.

Mind you the gender flipped version of that is considered offensive AND liberating (The woman who likes to sleep with a lot of guys). Hense Sex in the City it being a possitive.

You can disagree with her definition

Well no, she leaves it open to male damsels. She just says that the role is steriotypically delegated to "young women".

[DeKaFu]

Of course girls are going to be fine with playing male characters. Male characters get to be interesting. Why on earth would anyone want to be stuck in the pink aisle when they could have everything else?

Do you know how many people prefer playing female characters for the variety alone?

Nope. I'm just speaking from my own experiences. What sort of variety?

[Loud Whispers]

As I just said: no, it doesn't. Most forms of sexism are done unconsciously and are a result of existing systems. They are the crime of the status quo, not necessarily misogynists within society although misogyny tends to spread because of sexism.

Could I have some examples? I struggle to visualize how prejudice based upon one's gender can somehow not take the form of prejudice.

You ever watch those anti-drug commercials that seem to glorify the drugs while saying they are bad at the same time? It is kinda like that.

Saying that these steriotypes are bad while at the same time glamourising them and reinforcing them.

That's not satire. Satire is a deliberate exaggeration - a comedy even, making fun of a certain thing. Generally it takes a certain special level of skill to praise the thing you are mocking. Imagine a comedian making fun out of numerous human rights violations whilst holding up a placard that says bomb France. Not particularly self-reinforcing.

People can pick and choose whatever it is they identify with - at the end of the day their actions are theirs' responsibility alone. Authors, game designers and whatever should not be restricted to whatever conforms to accepted societal standards because it may influence people to x. This is perhaps the most fortunate part of the videos being redundant - sexism is not socially endorsed.

I would argue that if someone feels that authors and game designers don't conform to her societal standards, she has every right to pitch a fit. The media doesn't have to deliver what people want, but neither do people have to quietly accept what the media delivers.

"She?" Why didn't you use a third person participle? UNLESS YOU WERE BEING SEXIST BY SAYING ONLY PREJUDICE HAPPENS TO WOMEN!

Yeah, I can't really get hyped up about it. I would much rather have everyone be treated the same than give people special treatment because they are offended. She isn't pitching a fit, she is trying to profit off this and get it put into education.

[AND THE ILIAD!]

Nope. I'm just speaking from my own experiences. What sort of variety?

First comes to mind are those wonderful games that let you customize your character!

[Neonivek]

That's not satire. Satire is a deliberate exaggeration - a comedy even, making fun of a certain thing. Generally it takes a certain special level of skill to praise the thing you are mocking. Imagine a comedian making fun out of numerous human rights violations whilst holding up a placard that says bomb France. Not particularly self-reinforcing.

It doesn't require any level of skill to praise what you mock. You just have to somehow make it desirable and normal within the parody/satire.

That is what a Parody Cake is. A lot of blacksploitation is outright Parody cake (In that they are outright racist but hide it under "nuh uh this is a parody see!")

If anyone has a good example of Parody Cake I could use one right now >_< since I only have general examples.

[DeKaFu]

Nope. I'm just speaking from my own experiences. What sort of variety?

First comes to mind are those wonderful games that let you customize your character!

Just visually then?
Because I prefer playing as female characters when I get the chance, but oversexualization via skimpy costumes and oversized breasts leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
Even a good portion of the games I've played where you can choose a female character and customize them don't allow you to customize them enough to escape that particular ghetto. So after half an hour of trying I give up and play as a male.

So even when you get a choice, you don't really get a choice.

[Loud Whispers]

Just visually then?
Because I prefer playing as female characters when I get the chance, but oversexualization via skimpy costumes and oversized breasts leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
Even a good portion of the games I've played where you can choose a female character and customize them don't allow you to customize them enough to escape that particular ghetto. So after half an hour of trying I give up and play as a male.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bishonen&l=1

'Tis an indiscriminate industry of sexualization of all media out there. Is it brainless? Yes. Sexist? No.

It doesn't require any level of skill to praise what you mock.

At this point it ceases to be satire. Then it's just comedy.

[RedKing]

That's not satire. Satire is a deliberate exaggeration - a comedy even, making fun of a certain thing. Generally it takes a certain special level of skill to praise the thing you are mocking. Imagine a comedian making fun out of numerous human rights violations whilst holding up a placard that says bomb France. Not particularly self-reinforcing.

It doesn't require any level of skill to praise what you mock. You just have to somehow make it desirable and normal within the parody/satire.

That is what a Parody Cake is. A lot of blacksploitation is outright Parody cake (In that they are outright racist but hide it under "nuh uh this is a parody see!")

If anyone has a good example of Parody Cake I could use one right now >_< since I only have general examples.

I believe TV Tropes calls it Indecisive Parody.

Within the video game genre? I'd say Borderlands and Saints Row 3.

TV Tropes also suggests FATAL. (Having avoided it like the plague on the basis of word-of-mouth alone, I'll have to defer to others' judgement there.)

[Glowcat]

As I just said: no, it doesn't. Most forms of sexism are done unconsciously and are a result of existing systems. They are the crime of the status quo, not necessarily misogynists within society although misogyny tends to spread because of sexism.

Could I have some examples? I struggle to visualize how prejudice based upon one's gender can somehow not take the form of prejudice.

The very subject matter we're discussing where women end up in a situation where they're simply a step on some man's quest due to a combination of history, marketing demographics, and a male-dominated industry?

An early example that I could understand was in relation to racism and the early sports leagues. A manager could discriminate against a black athlete because of racial prejudice on his own part or he could discriminate because of concerns with how the athlete would be received. In both cases there is discrimination and thus racism. To extend that to where society itself establishes inequalities that aren't directly intended: people of African descent still tend to be overwhelmingly impoverished in America compared to the majority. Due to how money begets money, it's almost impossible for them to equalize with white America. While there are certainly a few people in government who are glad to see things this way, the overall situation isn't entirely due to the prejudice of a few members of congress.

[penguinofhonor]

Just visually then?
Because I prefer playing as female characters when I get the chance, but oversexualization via skimpy costumes and oversized breasts leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
Even a good portion of the games I've played where you can choose a female character and customize them don't allow you to customize them enough to escape that particular ghetto. So after half an hour of trying I give up and play as a male.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bishonen&l=1

'Tis an indiscriminate industry of sexualization of all media out there. Is it brainless? Yes. Sexist? No.

So your argument is "If if can happen to men, it's not sexist?" Well congrats, dude. Sexism is over.

[Loud Whispers]

As I just said: no, it doesn't. Most forms of sexism are done unconsciously and are a result of existing systems. They are the crime of the status quo, not necessarily misogynists within society although misogyny tends to spread because of sexism.

Could I have some examples? I struggle to visualize how prejudice based upon one's gender can somehow not take the form of prejudice.

The very subject matter we're discussing where women end up in a situation where they're simply a step on some man's quest due to a combination of history, marketing demographics, and a male-dominated industry?

Which would be very clearly prejudice based upon one's gender. Hence, sexism. Also I disagree with you in whole "women are portrayed merely as stepping stones the moment a damsel in distress situation arise":

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

On my original point what I mean about the tropes is, say you have a veritably stout woman who is a wall of muscle and steel. Tropety trope trope.



She is going off to save the kidnapped vulnerable handsome blond prince.



It's sexist!

Unless of course that was all subjective projection to begin with, in which case objectively it is not sexist.

Remember, you have to burn the trope.

Gross oversimplification.

So your argument is "If if can happen to men, it's not sexist?" Well congrats, dude. Sexism is over.

Hey hey, I got feelings too. Rubbing soap in my tired eyes. Though I suppose it would be sexist either way. Point retracted, new point formed:

• Sexualization of characters is sexist no matter what.