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[chaoticag]

Just about sums up all the wrong things about her videos.

And this is a response that sums up what's wrong with that video

[Loud Whispers]

Just about sums up all the wrong things about her videos.

And this is a response that sums up what's wrong with that video

"The Story of Troy and the Ramayana are both Damsel in Distress stories."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Did she just call the Iliad and the Ramayana Damsel in Distress stories?!!

"If you want to portray men as macho then dying pointlessly in honourable warfare to rescue a single kidnapped woman is older than civilisation."
This is completely forgetting the fact that the both were not composed with modern ethics in mind, nor were they composed with any inkling of the idea: "Hey, let's oppress women!"
I cannot speak for the Ramayana, but all these macho men dying "pointlessly" die for kleos, honour and glory, not for Helen. The Phrygians are critical of Paris for making war from his stupidity. The epic is deeply concerning Greek heritage and customs as well as the overarching themes of conquering bestial instincts, revenge, honouring the Gods, xenia and later despair.
Not to mention the fact that Hera and Thetis display great power, Aprhodite saves Aeneas multiple times and Pallas Athene defeats ARES.
This is not a 1 dimensional platformer that is trying to evoke quick Pathos, this is a complex series of epic which has incredible depth.
"All Amazons want Hercules." Yeah and Aias giving Hector his loincloth means all Achaeans want Hector. Or perhaps we are viewing this through a skewed perspective?

Tropes are not sexist. You know what is? Pointless bloats like chainmail bikinis and jiggle physics. These do not add to the game whatsoever, nor are they tropes and are really freaking annoying. It shatters immersion - there is nothing more jarring than seeing scantily clad maidens driving steampunk tanks. Generally though, these games do not seek to be taken seriously.

"Why? Because if you did and you did so with a friend as player 2 (my house, I get to be player 1!) then there was a twist. The final boss fight was the other player. You fought each other to determine who got Marian."
That sounds fun, albeit lazy writing. I honestly do not know enough about double dragon to comment on the rest.

"Mario is a freaking plumber as is his brother and Link is some kid in a village. Their contact with Peach and Zelda is incidental. In the first game Mario and Luigi “heroically” respond to the plight of the Mushroom Kingdom and Mario is rewarded with a Princess. Zelda and Peach/Toadstool are Magical MacGuffins. Women do not fall in love with you when you slay the modern dragon of “Helping Put Ikea”. These stories date back to the time when women were actual rewards for achievement and perhaps we should stop using the trope so much."
None of these characters are really known for their personalities. None of them. Especially the mushroom guzzling plumbers. Oh no sexist tropes!
Hell, I'd stop them being used because it's usually a cheap way to forget all about plot and substance.

"Thunderfoot doesn’t grasp the difference between a hospital and a story, even an interactive story. Hospitals don’t exist to satiate the need of the doctor but of the patient. Patients do not exist to make me happy, I exist to make them happy (and I gain happiness if they are happy so there is that!). The same applies to the Police and what have you. The female character in the game gets abducted solely to improve the male character’s (and usually a male player’s) experience."
Is it sexist when the reverse is true, a female love composed of muscle and steel seeks out her loved one from mortal peril? Her loved one also being incredibly capable and independent (yet kidnapped all the same?).

"There was no reason for James Kirk’s dad to fly the ship in himself. There are computers advanced enough to do that for him. He could have set the ship to ramming speed then jumped off quite handily."
If James didn't stay on the ship the writers would not have been able to evoke cheap sympathy in his noble sacrifice.
"James Kirk’s father is considered a hero NOT because he did it to save his wife and kid but because he did it to buy time for EVERYONE to escape by going down with HIS ship."
A hero is anyone who exemplifies noble qualities; one who would embark on an arduous journey for the safety of their loved ones is objectifying them?

"It is also accepted by anyone with a sense of human empathy that historically women have been regarded as possessions and that a trope that treats one as a reward is probably not a good one. Calling on human empathy without calling on historical context is frankly stupid."
I swear people talking entirely in tropes are frustrating. It's so much easier to talk about concepts and themes than tropes. Tropes seem to simply be applied to writings, writings never spring from tropes. The rescue of a partner is much more different from complete game: Receive waifu.

"Women CAN do dangerous jobs. There is nothing stopping them except expectation."
And physical limitations, it's a good character that can overcome these. But having a 5ft fillette smashing apart wave after wave of mooks is really detracting. Raising loads of kids while hunting and telling the Queen to go stuff it? Bam, awesome.

"The stereotype that men are strong and women are weak has lead to the notion that women are property and men are not. In nearly every single aspect of life, men have it quantifiably better."
Military conscription? Mass execution for being a potential future threat?

"Claiming many male characters don’t have a voice in games because they are “Silent” protagonists is to provide a blank slate in which to insert YOURSELF."
Chell? Oh and Gordon is most likely a murderous psychopathic physicist with a crowbar. He's most definitely not for the player to self-insert.

"You would have to be a blind oaf to claim that these games despise men when they do nothing but enable a bunch of men to be big damn heroes."
-He was being sarcastic and applying the same argument to men to showcase how absurd it is.

"Dear Thunderfoot. Economics 101. 50% of the population has a XX Chromosome. If you tailor your games to only XY chromosomes while denigrating XX and creating a culture that bashes anyone with a XX Chromosome then people with the XX Chromosome will not buy your games. If you instead create a game that is inclusive and encourage a culture of play in both demographics then you have the BEST coverage of a game and will make MORE money."
I agree the fuck out of this.

"Anita Sarkeesian shearing her hair down to a gender neutral style, removing her earrings and not wearing make up while wearing unfashionable clothes would just have resulted in Thunderfoot complaining about how unprofessional and ugly she looks."
Strawhat and a misinterpretation in one.

"The Thesis argument? Well her thesis is flawed IMHO for pointing out that traditional female “strengths” are different from male ones. I fear that’s due to delineation of stereotypes of women from TV where women are seen as more intuitive and caring while men are all strong and action orientated."
What happened to human strengths? All good qualities are not unique to either gender.

"There are significantly fewer positive feminine roles in TV because all the best ones are traditionally male."
Ah fuck the what

"Sexual dimorphism is only really valid if your biggest selection pressure is punching other men. We stopped doing that. Modern society and the technology we possess mean that women are effectively almost as strong as men."
There are a great whole swathe of settings in games where that pressure is just that, and the women are held to be inherently more valuable than the men. In this world? I would call that sexist. In a fictional world? I wouldn't care.

"Most women are capable of what passes for hard physical labour in the west. I know they can do it because Indian women who are routinely half starved and often living on diets of poor protein and poor iron still do hard physical labour that most western men would struggle to do."
Err... Most builders in the UK subsist off a diet of alcohol and peanuts

"The olympians are “freaks”. They are freaks of nature. They are severe outliers on the scale of human physical fitness to the point where they cannot even be considered within the norms of human capacity."
I hate this on so many levels >:[

"The fact of the matter is that Thunderfoot doesn’t understand what someone means when they say “That is a Strong Female Character”. It doesn’t mean “That’s the Terminator”, they mean “The qualities possessed by that Character are worthy of being a role model”."
This is not exclusive to being captured.

"Okay. My gripe with her video is this. She has come to play video-games relatively late in life. Some of the games she is playing are nearly 20 years old and are seen in the context of modern feminism. Many such stories are horrifically sexist in a modern day context too. She doesn’t see the context of games and why the remakes are so true to the originals. The fact of the matter remains that outside of context of time periods these games are frightfully one dimensional and boil down to saving women because the trope was so universally strong in all human culture and it transcended translation rather than a direct plan to oppress women."
+1

"There is genuine criticism, but there is only so much you can say in a 10 minute video. She has done a good job. Note, she isn’t telling us what to do as gamers. She is telling Game Makers that they are stagnating down hackneyed plots. A kick in the pants will increase our diversity of game and only benefit us the players. It doesn’t mean that our Call of Duty is going to suddenly be about solving international crisis by diplomacy but it does mean that we may see women portrayed in a better way in different games. You may see better treatment of women gamers. You may see more people coming to play our games and an entirely new demographic enjoying it."
A lot of people don't like profiteering off of warping good causes for their own end. Bad writing makes for a shit game no one will buy/enjoy "BUT SAMUS IS EMPOWERED BY BEING USELESS" e.t.c.

Tl;dr

The characters are for the writer to use to the best of their ability to further the enjoyment of the audience and the story. In whichever order. If they would so wish to create entirely one dimensional characters... So be it. They will incur the self penalties of sloth.

*EDIT
Fixed quasi-obnoxious font

[i2amroy]

-snip-

You might want to tone down the large font there a little. I can understand it for emphasis, but it gets kind of annoying in an analysis that long.

[Loud Whispers]

-snip-

You might want to tone down the large font there a little. I can understand it for emphasis, but it gets kind of annoying in an analysis that long.

It's not for emphasis, spoilers make everything inside them reaaaaalllyyyy small.

[Solifuge]

The characters are for the writer to use to the best of their ability to further the enjoyment of the audience and the story. In whichever order. If they would so wish to create entirely one dimensional characters... So be it. They will incur the self penalties of sloth.

Would that the cost was that small, or the problem that simple.

Fictional media has been shown to impact our opinions, the way we socialize with others, and so on. Stories go beyond entertainment, and act as social-simulators for us. Anyone who's ever identified with a character in a story should be able to see that.

In the era of mass media, where one person's story can reach and affect everyone within a culture (take the popularity of Harry Potter, Call of Duty, and so on for examples), storytellers have a responsibility to consider how they portray their characters, and the roles they fill. It doesn't matter if they're authors, game designers, movie directors, or whatever. These fictional characters will inform our opinions on real people who share traits with them, and shape our opinions on world issues.

[Neonivek]

You can have a good damsel in distress story and not be sexist, but it requires good story telling, and that requires effort

Well no, Damsel in distress isn't an inherantly sexist trope. I know this because it isn't sexist when a male is in that role either (Dang it Wally!).

It was never the existance of this trope but the excessive proliferation and its misuse within a story.

Or rather when someone adds a damsel it isn't sexist

When 90% of the plots involve a damsel it is concerning.

When a competent character is deligated to damsel for no reason, it is also concerning.

The Damsel in Distress trope is sexist

Switch the gender, is it still sexist?

There are tropes where once reversed are rather sexist.

[Loud Whispers]

Would that the cost was that small, or the problem that simple.

Fictional media has been shown to impact our opinions, the way we socialize with others, and so on. Stories go beyond entertainment, and act as social-simulators for us. Anyone who's ever identified with a character in a story should be able to see that.

In the era of mass media, where one person's story can reach and affect everyone within a culture (take the popularity of Harry Potter, Call of Duty, and so on for examples), storytellers have a responsibility to consider how they portray their characters, and the roles they fill. It doesn't matter if they're authors, game designers, movie directors, or whatever. These fictional characters will inform our opinions on real people who share traits with them, and shape our opinions on world issues.

This is no problem. People can pick and choose whatever it is they identify with - at the end of the day their actions are theirs' responsibility alone. Authors, game designers and whatever should not be restricted to whatever conforms to accepted societal standards because it may influence people to x. This is perhaps the most fortunate part of the videos being redundant - sexism is not socially endorsed.

[PanH]

This is no problem. People can pick and choose whatever it is they identify with - at the end of the day their actions are theirs' responsibility alone. Authors, game designers and whatever should not be restricted to whatever conforms to accepted societal standards because it may influence people to x. This is perhaps the most fortunate part of the videos being redundant - sexism is not socially endorsed.

So, a story that is sexist wouldn't be sexist because readers would choose (or not) to read it ?

[Loud Whispers]

This is no problem. People can pick and choose whatever it is they identify with - at the end of the day their actions are theirs' responsibility alone. Authors, game designers and whatever should not be restricted to whatever conforms to accepted societal standards because it may influence people to x. This is perhaps the most fortunate part of the videos being redundant - sexism is not socially endorsed.

So, a story that is sexist wouldn't be sexist because readers would choose (or not) to read it ?

It'd still be sexist, just no one'd be reading it.

And to reiterate my stance on sexist tropes: I deny they exist. All it takes is to reverse the genders playing the roles and it's fine again? It never was  problem to begin with then. There is a clear line between sexism and old themes.

I mean I don't care much for vidyas, but calling the Iliad a Damsel in distress story? Borderline blasphemy!

[Ogdibus]

.

[Neonivek]

This is no problem. People can pick and choose whatever it is they identify with - at the end of the day their actions are theirs' responsibility alone. Authors, game designers and whatever should not be restricted to whatever conforms to accepted societal standards because it may influence people to x. This is perhaps the most fortunate part of the videos being redundant - sexism is not socially endorsed.

So, a story that is sexist wouldn't be sexist because readers would choose (or not) to read it ?

It'd still be sexist, just no one'd be reading it.

Usually for a work to be outright sexist and get away with it... It actually has to be what I like to call a "Parody Cake" or a "Satire Cake".

To explain what a Parody Cake is just remember the saying: "You can't have your cake and eat it too"

Which is what they are. They are having their parody while at the same time embracing and using what they are parodying.

[Loud Whispers]

Usually for a work to be outright sexist and get away with it... It actually has to be what I like to call a "Parody Cake" or a "Satire Cake".

But then if it is satire of sexism it is not sexism. I'm talking about just plain old' prejudice in any work.

On my original point what I mean about the tropes is, say you have a veritably stout woman who is a wall of muscle and steel. Tropety trope trope.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

She is going off to save the kidnapped vulnerable handsome blond prince.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's sexist!

Unless of course that was all subjective projection to begin with, in which case objectively it is not sexist.

Remember, you have to burn the trope.

[DeKaFu]

Here's my opinion on female characters in video games and other media:

Female characters are, as a rule, boring as hell. It's because of stereotypes and bad writing, but it's self-perpetuating. Female players aren't going to care about female characters because they've been exposed to so many stories where their only character traits are "is female" and "boobs" that they've just started ignoring them entirely. There's no point grasping at the straws of actual characterization and motivation that these characters have, because it's frankly too much effort.
Exceptions exist, of course, but usually only in games with actual good writing, which will never be the norm or even the majority.

Look at the toy section of any department store. You'll have a girl's aisle and a boy's aisle. The girl's aisle has pink dolls, and some pink things that aren't dolls.
The boy's aisle has robots and cars and dinosaurs and snakes and planes and guns and robot dinosaurs and superheroes and legoes and dragons and lions and bugs and microscope kits and lightsabers and robot dragons and Pokémon and bugs and every colour on the planet that isn't pink.

Character roles are like that.

On one hand, you have the female roles: Damsels, staff chicks, booby action girls, moms.
On the other hand, you have the male roles: Everything else in the damn world.

Of course girls are going to be fine with playing male characters. Male characters get to be interesting. Why on earth would anyone want to be stuck in the pink aisle when they could have everything else?
Of course guys aren't interested in playing female characters. Why would anyone seek out the lame pink aisle when they already have so much other awesome stuff to choose from?

This isn't a carefully reasoned point of view. This was just my instinctive reaction to the state of things, ever since I was a kid. But that's as far as a lot of people are going to get.

[Glowcat]

Just about sums up all the wrong things about her videos.

And this is a response that sums up what's wrong with that video

Avicenna himself falls into a few traps. One important one is that Anita talks in that video about playing videos games in her youth so I have no idea where he gets the idea she started later in life, and the other biggie is when he says that the tropes were simply passed down and there wasn't a plan to oppress women. This is something that a lot of people seem to struggle with: sexism doesn't have to be some sinister plot by the oppressor class to keep women down.

[Loud Whispers]

On one hand, you have the female roles: Damsels, staff chicks, booby action girls, moms.
On the other hand, you have the male roles: Everything else in the damn world.

Kids shows tend to be more focused on selling products than developing characters. There is nothing physically stopping girls from picking up anything in the not-pink isle and vice versa. Heyo MLP.

Of course girls are going to be fine with playing male characters. Male characters get to be interesting. Why on earth would anyone want to be stuck in the pink aisle when they could have everything else?

Do you know how many people prefer playing female characters for the variety alone?

Avicenna himself falls into a few traps. One important one is that Anita talks in that video about playing videos games in her youth so I have no idea where he gets the idea she started later in life, and the other biggie is when he says that the tropes were simply passed down and there wasn't an plan to oppress women. This is something that a lot of people seem to struggle with: sexism doesn't have to be some sinister plot by the oppressor class to keep women down.

Well, there wasn't a plan. It was a system enforced by gender roles that kept ancient society out-competing others. Sexism need only be prejudice, but the prejudice is being invented where there is none now.