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[Tyg13]

I just dislike the sentiment that people are throwing out, like the average person is living under a totalitarianist regime like Soviet Russia or Oceania from 1984. I'd like to say (probably unnecessarily) that I'm not a very well off person myself. I'm poor, but I still like this country and think it's better than the alternative.

You make it sound like the U.S. is worse off compared to most other countries. You make it sound like we're the only country that has to deal with corruption, or injustice. Relatively speaking, and not subjectively speaking (i.e. "I don't think this country is doing well"), compared to most other countries in the world, we have to deal with less corruption. Think of a place like Italy, where the Prime Minister can essentially do whatever the hell he wants with little repercussion. It's the norm there, they don't even bat an eye anymore. Or even worse, places like Russia where you can literally bribe police to look the other way. If you tried to do that in America, you'd be laughed at, and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. In fact, in the international Corruption Perceptions Index, the U.S. ranks 19th best out of 176 countries.

Like Strife said, we're not amazing. We're not even great. But "greatness" and "goodness" is a relative term. You have to understand what you're comparing it to. If you compare it to how bad corruption is in Europe, then it's about the same in most cases, probably a bit worse. Compared to 90% of the countries in the world, America is pretty great. Compared to an unrealistic, ultra-pure society that will most likely never exist, yeah it looks pretty shitty here in America.

Look, I'm not trying to say we shouldn't constantly be striving to improve our situation, or that corrupt officials should be overlooked. There's a lot we definitely need to deal with, and I applaud the efforts of those who try to drag examples of corruption kicking and screaming into the light. That's what our duty as citizens is to do, to fight tyranny and corruption. But to dismiss our entire country as corrupt and a bad place to live, ignoring the greater corruption in the rest of the world, that's wrong.

[Pnx]

1) Have you actually experienced the alternatives? Many Americans say stuff like this, but honestly, the majority of the nation does not own a passport and has never actually been abroad, which is sort of unusual for a developed nation.

2) We're not actually saying the US is worse than most other countries, we're saying it is by a pretty wide margin not the best in the world when it comes to places to live. As someone once said to me the US is only #1 at two things, prison population, and military budget. One thing that drives me nuts... and many other people, is the popular view by Americans that it is the greatest country in the world, if you go back to the beginning of the conversation, you'll notice that the "US bashing" was started because someone said in response to the OP:

Probably USA.

We still have tons of problems, but we're probably the best.

While I know that a lot of the country isn't really so badly informed to think that this nation is the best in the world, I deal with soooo many people who seem to be under the impression that I moved to this country on account of trying to go somewhere with better conditions. I didn't I came here because my father came here on account of being offered a pretty high paying job in a corporation that moved it's headquarters here because your nation is a bit of a corporate tax haven.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

1) Have you actually experienced the alternatives? Many Americans say stuff like this, but honestly, the majority of the nation does not own a passport and has never actually been abroad, which is sort of unusual for a developed nation.

There's a reason for that. The majority of the developed world is in North America and Europe. Europe has a bunch of (relatively) tiny nations, the vast majority of North America is composed of only three nations. For Europeans, a passport is a necessity because of the national boundaries that must be traversed for travel. If you live in the United States or Canada, you already have a giant area to explore that requires no passport.

[Dutchling]

You don't even need  passport for most of Europe either. Just a regular ID card will suffice.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Only because of a relatively recent diplomatic agreement.

[Pnx]

1) Have you actually experienced the alternatives? Many Americans say stuff like this, but honestly, the majority of the nation does not own a passport and has never actually been abroad, which is sort of unusual for a developed nation.

There's a reason for that. The majority of the developed world is in North America and Europe. Europe has a bunch of (relatively) tiny nations, the vast majority of North America is composed of only three nations. For Europeans, a passport is a necessity because of the national boundaries that must be traversed for travel. If you live in the United States or Canada, you already have a giant area to explore that requires no passport.

And I think that's a pretty bad thing.

Everyone should take the time to experience and get to know another culture and language in their lifetime. It does give you a much more interesting perspective on what you consider "normal" or "natural".

[kaijyuu]

I'm curious to see statistics of Europeans who have at least once left Europe vs USA citizens who have at least once left the USA.

I suspect Europeans are slightly higher since most all of them need passports to travel between the countries there, but not the ridiculous disparity between USA citizens with a passport vs Europeans with a passport.

[Pnx]

Eh, most people in Europe when they go on holiday go to Spain or Italy or some such (I don't know where the mediterraneans go when they want to get away from their places). Ex-British islands in the Caribbean are also fairly popular holiday destinations for a lot of Brits.

Some do take the opportunity to go places more exotic like China or Mexico, but mostly they are about as geographically regional as Americans I think. The difference is that they experience more diversity in their patch of land than the US does.

[kaijyuu]

I got more than a little culture shock by moving to the South in the US. Churches with passive aggressive signs on every street corner! Though I will concede Europe probably has more varied culture than here.

[Pnx]

You should give it a shot sometime, you will find things that are different that you never thought would be different. I guarantee it.

Personally I got pretty sick of moving around from country to country after being shuttled all over the place through 4 different nations throughout my childhood.

[Loud Whispers]

It's the norm there, they don't even bat an eye anymore.

Do you even Italy?

If you tried to do that in America, you'd be laughed at, and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. In fact, in the international Corruption Perceptions Index, the U.S. ranks 19th best out of 176 countries.

There's plenty of evidence to go against that that's been posted in this thread.

Everyone should take the time to experience and get to know another culture and language in their lifetime. It does give you a much more interesting perspective on what you consider "normal" or "natural".

Practice objectivity; abandon your notions of normal!

Eh, most people in Europe when they go on holiday go to Spain or Italy or some such (I don't know where the mediterraneans go when they want to get away from their places). Ex-British islands in the Caribbean are also fairly popular holiday destinations for a lot of Brits.

Some do take the opportunity to go places more exotic like China or Mexico, but mostly they are about as geographically regional as Americans I think. The difference is that they experience more diversity in their patch of land than the US does.

Also there is already a lot of cultural osmosis from an impetus of immigration and multi-culturalism. "Exotic" loses much meaning when the distance can be crossed in under a day too.
To be honest it is understandable why most Americans never go abroad beyond Hawaii. America has an imitation of just about every country plus each state is a country in its own right. For most Europeans the effort needed to get to a holiday in Europe is much the same as going to another country outside the EU.


And because no one's done it yet, I'd nominate France or Denmark for European spot.

[GlyphGryph]

In fact, in the international Corruption Perceptions Index, the U.S. ranks 19th best out of 176 countries.

The US has a score of 73. There are several countries with a score of 90.

All this proves as that even bringing up the US in a discussion of the "least corrupt" countries is pretty absurd. Its a convincing argument that most countries are pretty corrupt, if the numbers are to be believed, but not that the US is anywhere near the top or that they don't have significant issues. But if you're only argument is "most people are worst", you probably don't belong proposing it in the company of countries that that are actually really good about it.

Interesting to note, tied for top place at 90 are the following three countries:
Denmark
Finland
New Zealand

And I'd agree with that list as a decent starting point, although they still obviously have their problems. (And least corrupt is not most free)

Using the tool Freedom Index with reasonable priorities (I think) for what this thread describes, I get the following order for the top 10:

Rank Nation         
1    Netherlands
2    Australia
3    Finland     
4    Denmark
5    Canada     
6    New Zealand     
7    Belgium   
8    Germany
9    Luxembourg   
10   Sweden

[Pnx]

Also there is already a lot of cultural osmosis from an impetus of immigration and multi-culturalism. "Exotic" loses much meaning when the distance can be crossed in under a day too.
To be honest it is understandable why most Americans never go abroad beyond Hawaii. America has an imitation of just about every country plus each state is a country in its own right. For most Europeans the effort needed to get to a holiday in Europe is much the same as going to another country outside the EU.


And because no one's done it yet, I'd nominate France or Denmark for European spot.

Well yeah, but the thing is that a lot of the immigrants tend to live in enclaves that tend to exist in pretty close-knit communities (this is hardly a uniquely American phenomenon, but it seems exaggerated in the US, I think perhaps because it's seen several periods of very heavy immigration in the past). You might be familiar with Chinese cuisine thanks to the immigration, but how familiar are you with the way they raise their kids in China, or what their perspectives on the world are over there, or all the little things that make them different?

Also I'm not sure France really belongs on that list so much. I suppose it's probably not a horrible country, but it's definitely a nation that has some big issues.
I've also got a little bit of a personal vendetta against the place.

[shadenight123]

I believe the only solution would be to strike the Earth.
...
horrendous pun.

I heard nice things about San Martino and the Malta Island.
...
Maybe Switzerland or Luxembourg?

[olemars]

I like Malta. Been there twice and it's a wonderfully tranquil and bizarre little country. Highly recommended as a vacation target. But it's also fairly conservative and I wouldn't rate it that high on the civil liberties scale. Last I heard they were loosening up a little though. You no longer have to wait 8 years for a divorce to be approved, it was slashed to 4 after fierce debate in their parliament.