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[Flying Dice]

Shakerag 236:

Okay, in no particular order:

IronyOwl: Mostly null at the moment. He's not been incredibly active, but IIRC at the start of the game he said he wouldn't be able to. Hasn't applied any significant pressure, but also hasn't given off any scum vibes that I've noticed. If he keeps up his current posting pattern for the next day or two I'll probably examine him more closely to see if he's trying to pull off a subtle active lurk.

Shakerag: Nothing incredibly telling, as above, but from what I remember of my past BM experiences you were very difficult to read. I am, however, concerned that your answer to my question was not in IC speak. That's somewhat suspicious to me, as while it undoubtedly has a grain of truth in it (you wouldn't IC if you didn't want to teach people how to play), you could also be using that as a cover to make it look like you're more active in the game than you actually are. The non-IC substance of your posts has been somewhat sparse, which makes it difficult to get a read on you. Why did you not feel it was necessary to post what was nominally a very IC-texty answer in IC text?

Captain Ford: He's been posting very long walls of text, which frankly I couldn't be arsed to read completely, but what I did read was far from concise. Not incredibly scummy, but worth keeping an eye on. Oversaturation of data is one potential way for scum to appear active without saying too much of substance. I'm also curious as to why he felt it necessary to post what he himself described as "personal notes" despite the fact that he supposedly didn't think they were worth bringing up. He then claims to have posted them because they would be educational, despite apparently being completely insignificant. It feels like a very passive way of throwing guilt around, which is not town behavior. Actually, why did you post those notes, Captain? The real reason, please.

((As an aside, I think of Nadaka every time I read one of your posts. It's the avatar. :x))

borno: Somewhat scummy, though he acted the same way in the last BM we played together, and he flipped town there as well despite looking like complete scum. Maybe I'm relying too much on metaknowledge, but I'm reluctant to read his flailing as guilt without further evidence. If he keeps it up, though, I might pursue him just on the off chance that he is scum and not just town that is trying too hard to act town.

Spaghetti: He's said and done some things that read as quite scummy to me. The first, obviously, is jumping on a vote which already had two people without giving any reason. That answer he gave in the post I responded to in 231 also felt very off.

Alright, let me try to explain that again. In the early game and the scumhunting that ensures, I would find someone giving off tells. I would push them and milk every last bit of evidence I could, showing them as weak. If someone then votes on me and a couple of people suspiciously join in, being all aggressive but obviously having no real reasons to join, I would try to ward off the attack by revealing someone else who was incredibly scummy. I realise this doesn't answer the original question (which I misread at the time) but I attempted to answer the actual question above. When saying background, I mean background by Mafia standards, not lurking.

That's what I mean. He's saying that he would deliberately accumulate a case on someone who looks vulnerable, and then sit on it until he's in danger of being lynched. In other words, he would only reveal his case against that person in order to defend himself. That's about as scummy as you can get, IMO. There's no concern for catching scum, only for preserving his own skin. That says to me that he was approaching this from the mindset of a mafioso, which strongly suggests that he is in fact scum, as he is answering questions from a scum perspective without being prompted to do so.

Also note that he ignored that part of my post completely, only responding to your own IC comment, using it as a lifeline and an attempt to dismiss his slipup entirely. He then goes with an appeal to authority, asking Irony (who just so happens to be the other IC) if he agrees that it's pointless and should be swept under the rug.

Furthermore:

Alrighty. In case you didn't know, bandwagoning can be a tactic. When people are put under pressure of a very possible lynch, they can say things that they really shouldn't say. This is the sort of stuff I was looking for here. borno, you did seem to get pretty worked up by it (I understand you're moving house ) and have done some backtracking since. If you want some reasons, I would talk about the wealth of RVS questions you were asking, some really quite contrived, and say that you were trying to make it appear you were active and scum hunting while switching targets too quickly to ever actually find anything out. As of right now, I'm still not sure whether you are just having newbie problems or scum problems, however.

Note that he doesn't say who bandwagoning is a tactic for. It's a scumtell for a reason. He just admitted to bandwagoning borno. That's by far the scummiest thing anyone has said in this game. Granted, borno's not exactly clean, but Spaghetti is positively filthy by comparison.

Let me repeat that: He admitted to bandwagoning someone! Supposedly as an attempt to pressure the target into revealing something, but that's a load of crap. If a player is already in a situation where they're in danger of being lynched, an additional pressure vote is unlikely to shake anything loose. This is one of the most half-arsed coverups of blatant scum behavior that I've seen, either in my own BM experience or in others that I've read.

Soldier and Nerjin both felt faintly town to me, but I'm not going to put too much stock into analyzing their RVS/early D1 posts as they're going to be replaced, and I don't want to work on one person with someone else's behavioral pattern as a guide.


Emphasis in quotes is mine.

[Spaghetti7]

Eesh. I really don't have time now, but I'll get to that WoT in the morning. Thanks, Flying Dice.

[Shakerag]

Why did you not feel it was necessary to post what was nominally a very IC-texty answer in IC text?

Because you were asking a question to me, as a player, about my playstyle this game.  Ergo, it made sense to reply as a player, and not in my IC voice. 

[And with that, I'm out for the weekend all.  Barring something unusual.  See you on Monday.]

[Flying Dice]

Why did you not feel it was necessary to post what was nominally a very IC-texty answer in IC text?

Because you were asking a question to me, as a player, about my playstyle this game.  Ergo, it made sense to reply as a player, and not in my IC voice. 

[And with that, I'm out for the weekend all.  Barring something unusual.  See you on Monday.]

Fair enough.

Eesh. I really don't have time now, but I'll get to that WoT in the morning. Thanks, Flying Dice.

Always glad to give people something to do. 

[borno]

Blargh, not really in the mood to play mafia right now. Hopefully I'll be able to make a big post tonight, though.

[Spaghetti7]

Alright, let me try to explain that again. In the early game and the scumhunting that ensures, I would find someone giving off tells. I would push them and milk every last bit of evidence I could, showing them as weak. If someone then votes on me and a couple of people suspiciously join in, being all aggressive but obviously having no real reasons to join, I would try to ward off the attack by revealing someone else who was incredibly scummy. I realise this doesn't answer the original question (which I misread at the time) but I attempted to answer the actual question above. When saying background, I mean background by Mafia standards, not lurking.

That's what I mean. He's saying that he would deliberately accumulate a case on someone who looks vulnerable, and then sit on it until he's in danger of being lynched. In other words, he would only reveal his case against that person in order to defend himself. That's about as scummy as you can get, IMO. There's no concern for catching scum, only for preserving his own skin. That says to me that he was approaching this from the mindset of a mafioso, which strongly suggests that he is in fact scum, as he is answering questions from a scum perspective without being prompted to do so.

Hold on. If you manage to get a good case on someone it will generally be known to others in the game that that person looks quite scummy. This could lead to them being lynched and all the rest. I assumed this would be obvious. Only if they weren't, and I was in a tight spot, would I try to use this to ward off the attackers. Show up someone who is more scummy than me.

Also note that he ignored that part of my post completely, only responding to your own IC comment, using it as a lifeline and an attempt to dismiss his slipup entirely. He then goes with an appeal to authority, asking Irony (who just so happens to be the other IC) if he agrees that it's pointless and should be swept under the rug.

I felt that I had already answered the question about WHY I voted borno in a previous answer, and didn't think it necessary to copy and paste my reply again. And regarding my question to IronyOwl, it wasn't an appeal for someone with authority to agree that it was pointless. I asked the person whose question I felt had just led to a whole mess of answers for general mafia, if he was okay with agreeing it was getting stupid. We were just arguing over an RVS question from pages ago and generally getting nowhere.

Furthermore:

Alrighty. In case you didn't know, bandwagoning can be a tactic. When people are put under pressure of a very possible lynch, they can say things that they really shouldn't say. This is the sort of stuff I was looking for here. borno, you did seem to get pretty worked up by it (I understand you're moving house ) and have done some backtracking since. If you want some reasons, I would talk about the wealth of RVS questions you were asking, some really quite contrived, and say that you were trying to make it appear you were active and scum hunting while switching targets too quickly to ever actually find anything out. As of right now, I'm still not sure whether you are just having newbie problems or scum problems, however.

Note that he doesn't say who bandwagoning is a tactic for. It's a scumtell for a reason. He just admitted to bandwagoning borno. That's by far the scummiest thing anyone has said in this game. Granted, borno's not exactly clean, but Spaghetti is positively filthy by comparison.

I agree, that bandwagoning is scummy. And I agree that it's generally a scum tactic, to try to get someone lynched without any effort required. However, and I quote from MafiaWiki:

The goal of a bandwagon is to either lynch a player or force them to roleclaim via the pressure of the possibility of getting lynched. Because players may react differently under pressure, some players consider bandwagons to be a vital part of "reading" players.

it can also be a tactic for town, to try to get a better read on someone. If I went in so rashly and without reason, borno could be put under enough pressure to crack. I then gave reasons afterwards, despite him having shown a fair few scumtells along the way.

He admitted to bandwagoning someone! Supposedly as an attempt to pressure the target into revealing something, but that's a load of crap.

Did you see borno's post afterwards? I think his anger showed that it got at a nerve, certainly.

[Dariush]

The title of this thread reads like a badly spelled assassination advertisement.

[Flying Dice]

Spaghetti @ 245: I disagree. It's perfectly possibly to accumulate evidence on someone without posting it. Granted, someone else might pick up on the same cues, but if they don't then you're essentially holding that case in reserve until you need it to save yourself. That's the complete antithesis of town behavior.

Did you see borno's post afterwards? I think his anger showed that it got at a nerve, certainly.

Again, this may be relying a bit too much on metaknowledge, but panic and anger from him is something of a null tell IMO, as he's acted the exact same way before when pressured in prior games, both as town and as scum. I'm going to need to see more than that before I believe that he's not just flailing town being bandwagoned by scum.

borno: Why are you panicking? If you're town, you've got more important things to worry about. For that matter, Captain Ford's posts freaked you out a lot as well. You're actually starting to look suspicious, and this coming from someone who's seen you flailing nearly this badly as town before.

Your past few posts have all consisted of apologies over your freakout and off-topic conversation. If you have the time to post, why weren't you questioning anyone? Hell, even the time it takes to post "I don't really feel like posting at the moment." could be used to ask a simple question or two. Damn it, I can't help but this is going to repeat past events, but you're acting too scummy to leave alone borno. Not as scummy as the read I'm getting from Spaghetti, though. Yet.

The title of this thread reads like a badly spelled assassination advertisement.

Little known secret: Deathsword got the title for this BM from Craigslist.

Incidentally, I have just discovered that from March 16th to March 23rd I will be in a locale with no internet access. I had formerly been informed that this was not the case, or I would not have signed up as a replacement. That's five weekdays I'll be gone; I'd prefer not to be replaced, but if you all aren't okay with just extending over that or playing the day without me, I'll bow out once the time comes.

[Captain Ford]

Captain Ford: He's been posting very long walls of text, which frankly I couldn't be arsed to read completely, but what I did read was far from concise. Not incredibly scummy, but worth keeping an eye on. Oversaturation of data is one potential way for scum to appear active without saying too much of substance. I'm also curious as to why he felt it necessary to post what he himself described as "personal notes" despite the fact that he supposedly didn't think they were worth bringing up. He then claims to have posted them because they would be educational, despite apparently being completely insignificant. It feels like a very passive way of throwing guilt around, which is not town behavior. Actually, why did you post those notes, Captain? The real reason, please.

Reasons, not reason. Why do people always assume people only have one reason for the things they do?

1. First of all, as I stated when I posted them, I wanted superBlast to see them. I didn't see a reason to keep it hidden from everyone else, either.
2. I put a crapload of effort into them, and didn't want to let it go to waste.
3. The Soldier asked me if I could explain why superBlast did the things he did. That was a rough draft of an answer.
4. I was curious how people would react to it.
5. A number of newbies were expressing difficulty understanding how to scumhunt. I thought it might give them some insight on how to compile reads on people. (You don't have to keep long notes, by the way. I'm just particularly verbose)
6. I couldn't think of a good reason not to post them. In retrospect, it was very heavy-handed for a BM, and I wouldn't do it again.
7. I was tired and had a headache from staring at my computer screen for so long. In those situations, I have a tendency to say, "screw it. Post it. Figure the rest out later" just like every other member of the human race.

I didn't intend for my notes to have a strong impact on the game. It was more of a "here this is. If you want to talk about it, I will, but if you don't, it's no big deal." Which is why I handled borno the way I did.

Anyways, let me address some of that stuff you just said:

"He then claims..."
I said right when I posted it that I wanted superBlast to read it. Don't you dare try to tell me it wasn't good for him.

"...he supposedly didn't think they were worth bringing up"
Blatant lie. I have said multiple times that I believed they were worth posting. I even said I have a PM from a player who thanked me profusely for posting them.

"...insignificant"
Where did you get that from? I never said they were inconsequential, just that I didn't expect anyone to read them (as confirmed almost immediately by Shakerag). I mean, they're notes. I fully expect to be fielding questions based on them for a good while, as I am now, but it's not like you haven't read the stuff they're based on already.

"...which frankly I couldn't be arsed to read completely"
Uh huh. Case in point.

"Oversaturation of data"
I have a bit of a reputation for being verbose. I include things that are supplemental -- showing my work, so to speak -- but always in spoilers, and always clearly marked so I don't waste people's time. If they want to verify my reasoning, they can. It's optional content, for people who have more time and interest.

"appear active without saying too much of substance"
So you're saying that, if you take out the post with my personal notes in it, it looks like I'm lurking?

And aren't you doing much the same thing?

((As an aside, I think of Nadaka every time I read one of your posts. It's the avatar. :x))

(Oh yeah, I spotted him earlier. Has he had that avatar long?)

Regarding your read on spaghetti: did you see the original question? The behavior he described is scummy, yes, but it is an accurate answer to the question he was asked.

Did you see borno's post afterwards? I think his anger showed that it got at a nerve, certainly.

Again, this may be relying a bit too much on metaknowledge, but panic and anger from him is something of a null tell IMO, as he's acted the exact same way before when pressured in prior games, both as town and as scum. I'm going to need to see more than that before I believe that he's not just flailing town being bandwagoned by scum.

The metainfo is actually quite helpful, and I agree with ...

being bandwagoned by scum.

...

You sure are judgy, aren't you?

borno: Why are you panicking? If you're town, you've got more important things to worry about. For that matter, Captain Ford's posts freaked you out a lot as well. You're actually starting to look suspicious, and this coming from someone who's seen you flailing nearly this badly as town before.

Your past few posts have all consisted of apologies over your freakout and off-topic conversation. If you have the time to post, why weren't you questioning anyone? Hell, even the time it takes to post "I don't really feel like posting at the moment." could be used to ask a simple question or two. Damn it, I can't help but this is going to repeat past events, but you're acting too scummy to leave alone borno.

He's posted twice. Once apologetic, and the second time to say he wasn't going to post on the weekend.

Why are you so quick to cast suspicion around, FlyingDice?

And since I'm here, can you explain Remuthra's actions?

[borno]

OK, what the hell. This is a fucking bandwagon right here, for all you newbs who don't know what the definition of the word is. I'm willing to accept this as a lazy towny trying for an easy lynch, because there are only two scum. But really, REASONS, ASSHOLE.

Alrighty. In case you didn't know, bandwagoning can be a tactic. When people are put under pressure of a very possible lynch, they can say things that they really shouldn't say. This is the sort of stuff I was looking for here. borno, you did seem to get pretty worked up by it (I understand you're moving house ) and have done some backtracking since. If you want some reasons, I would talk about the wealth of RVS questions you were asking, some really quite contrived, and say that you were trying to make it appear you were active and scum hunting while switching targets too quickly to ever actually find anything out. As of right now, I'm still not sure whether you are just having newbie problems or scum problems, however.

I understand how I reacted was uncalled for, and was probably a fatal mistake.  I just really, really didn't want to have to put up with it at the time. And about the RVS questions, I've already answered about that. I thought that, since there was a new replacement in the game, that it would be acceptable to ask an RVS question to him. Apparently not.
[/quote]

borno: Why are you panicking? If you're town, you've got more important things to worry about. For that matter, Captain Ford's posts freaked you out a lot as well. You're actually starting to look suspicious, and this coming from someone who's seen you flailing nearly this badly as town before.

Because I'm town. If town gets lynched, then it damages the other town, and makes the townie in question unable to scum hunt.
Yes, I made a huge mistake with my over-the-top reaction. I know I'm going to get lynched for it, looking back. As I've said before, I was in a bad mood, and it was made worse when I saw all the posts against me. I completely mis-interpreted Captain Ford's post, and all the other posts after it.

@Borno- What is more important as a doctor, finding scum or lasting as long as possible?

That's a tough one, but I think that lasting as long as possible would be the best idea, since then you have more chance to help people live...
Actually, this sounds suspiciously like a role fish, Remuthra. Trying to flush the doctor out so you can kill him at night?

Do tell how this is rolefishing, borno.

I see this as role fishing because I was more focussed on scum-hunting than staying alive, and the question was what would you do as doctor. If I had answered scum-hunting, then the scum would probably know if I were a doctor.

Care to explain your reasoning here, borno? That makes no sense, as far as I can tell.
[/quote]
I fell into a fallacy. I was thinking along the lines of

The doctor tries to stay alive.
He tries to stay alive too.
Therefore, he must be the Doctor.

which is a bad assumption to make.
OK, full explanation time. I am an average towny. I am trying to stay alive, because If I die, I cannot assist the other townies in scum hunting, and the scum are one step closer to victory. I overreacted because I was tired, although there probably is no excuse. I'll Unvote Ford, because he seems to be town IMO. I apologise for the half-hearted post, I'm not really feeling it right now. I was thinking about calling a replacement, but that would be unfair to the mod, since there are already two people on replacement row.

[Captain Ford]

I apologise for the half-hearted post, I'm not really feeling it right now.

Ah, now, see. This is what I was worried about. When you're filled with righteous anger, and the floor's just yanked out from under your argument -- it really sucks it out of you. (I'm going through a bout of burnout myself right now, to be honest. Makes me glad my games are running slow right now, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to keep up)

I think that's enough touchy-feely. Time to kick your ass back into gear.

I thought that, since there was a new replacement in the game, that it would be acceptable to ask an RVS question to him. Apparently not.

You are doing the same damn thing that superBlast did. You're backpedaling way too far.

Because I'm town. If town gets lynched, then it damages the other town, and makes the townie in question unable to scum hunt.

Where the crap did you get that idea from? It's nearly impossible to get a lynch in this game without at least one or two townies on the lynch, and on day 1, unless one of the scum was close to getting lynched, there's no need for any scum to be involved.

What I'm getting that, is that whenever a townie is lynched, at least some of the people who lynched him were wrong. And when a scum is lynched, every townie that didn't vote for him was wrong. Townies are always going to be wrong most of the time. It's just the nature of this game. If you let people get away with hamstringing you because you lynched a townie, that's your fault. As long as you had good reasons, your fellow townies won't see you as any worse off because of it. And if you get lynched, and some of your fellow townies had bad reasons for lynching you, well, that's their fault, not yours.

Yes, I made a huge mistake with my over-the-top reaction. I know I'm going to get lynched for it, looking back.

Okay, I'm going to be very clear with you here.

No, you didn't. And no, you won't.

Your mistake was misreading my post. But your reaction to what you thought you saw was perfect. If it weren't for the fact that you made a ton of mistakes in your case, it would have been an excellent example of how to scumhunt (the Dariush way, I suppose).

If you're going to get lynched, it's because you're being mopey and telling us over and over again that you deserve to get lynched. If you're a townie, then start kicking some scummy ass!

REASONS, ASSHOLE.

Now this is the borno I want to see more of.

[Teneb]

SilverDragon has replaced Nerjin

Sorry for lack of votecounts, I've been busy.

[Flying Dice]

Captain Ford:

"He then claims..."
I said right when I posted it that I wanted superBlast to read it. Don't you dare try to tell me it wasn't good for him.

superBlast wasn't the one who was most affected in the context of the game, not by a long shot. You and I both know that wasn't what I was referring to. You posted a load of information that happened to be laden with sideways accusations when you could just have easily PMed it, then claimed that nobody needed to read it. That's a passive way to go about building a case, and looks sneaky as hell. The notes on borno are the ones relevant to the game as it stands, and you're purposely ignoring them while going on about how you just wanted to be helpful to super. Great. Super. I don't care.

"...he supposedly didn't think they were worth bringing up"
Blatant lie. I have said multiple times that I believed they were worth posting. I even said I have a PM from a player who thanked me profusely for posting them.

Allow me to make a rebuttal:

PPE:  Goddamnit, Ford.  [P.P.S. You just set yourself up to get lynched, assuming last votecount is correct.]

What? Dammit. I misread the votecount. I thought superBlast only had one vote from Nerjin.

Well, I'm not going to tie the vote back up. So Extension.

...and that took me about three hours. But it was productive.

I hope you feel so, because I'm not reading that wall of text.

I really, really hope not. Like I said, it's for superBlast mostly. It's also for me to refer back to.

If I'd known superBlast was on death row, I probably wouldn't have put in as much effort. But I did what I had to do to get a good grip on the game in a short timespan.

So in other words, they weren't worth posting in the context of the game, they were worth posting in the context of you helping super. And yet somehow they were posted in the game thread, despite their value being only for superBlast's enlightenment and your own back-referencing. That equates to them supposedly not being worth talking about in public view. You're contradicting yourself here.

"...insignificant"
Where did you get that from? I never said they were inconsequential, just that I didn't expect anyone to read them (as confirmed almost immediately by Shakerag). I mean, they're notes. I fully expect to be fielding questions based on them for a good while, as I am now, but it's not like you haven't read the stuff they're based on already.

See above. If your suspicions aren't worth talking about, they're insignificant. You made statements to the effect that they weren't useful for the game, yet posted them anyways. Again, you're being contradictory.

"...which frankly I couldn't be arsed to read completely"
Uh huh. Case in point.

Except not at all. I skimmed it, noticed that it was a list of summaries with a bit of superficial analysis, and didn't bother wasting my time carefully reading and re-reading each entry. WoTs are fine, but unless they have some sort of real insight I don't really care.

"Oversaturation of data"
I have a bit of a reputation for being verbose. I include things that are supplemental -- showing my work, so to speak -- but always in spoilers, and always clearly marked so I don't waste people's time. If they want to verify my reasoning, they can. It's optional content, for people who have more time and interest.

There's no optional content in Mafia. There's useful data, insights, and analyses, and there's junk not worth posting. If you posted it, you obviously think it was worth mentioning, and yet you keep saying that it isn't necessary for us to read it. That's massively contradictory, and comes off very poorly on my proverbial sneak-o-meter.

"appear active without saying too much of substance"
So you're saying that, if you take out the post with my personal notes in it, it looks like I'm lurking?

In the context of those notes? Yes. Hells yes. It's incredibly easy to throw together a post summarizing either someone's behavior or another player's case and leave it at that. I'm not saying that's all you've done, but you did dabble in it.

And aren't you doing much the same thing?

Heh, no. I won't patronize you by calling that a nice try. I attempt to avoid posting irrelevancies, and when I do post I endeavor to fully address both anything posted towards me and any concerns or suspicions I may have at the time, as well as anything of tangental importance to the game (like, say, being away from internet connectivity).

((As an aside, I think of Nadaka every time I read one of your posts. It's the avatar. :x))

(Oh yeah, I spotted him earlier. Has he had that avatar long?)

((As long as I can remember.))

Regarding your read on spaghetti: did you see the original question? The behavior he described is scummy, yes, but it is an accurate answer to the question he was asked.

I want you to read this very carefully.

But since you insist, hey Spaghetti. How would you best keep the scum from targetting you?

I would deflect it to other people. Build up a good case against someone else, and push it hard if votes started falling on my head. If that failed, then I would push against those leading the bandwagon against me and try to expose them while they're weak on the offence. Try to reveal them to the people following for the wagon.

That's scummy as hell, and the original context of the question set him as town. If you're saving cases on other people to use to divert attention from yourself, that's scum behavior, regardless of whether he was supposed to be speaking as town or scum. That he responded like scum says to me that he is thinking in a scum mindset, and therefore is quite possibly scum. Also note that the original question was on how he would prevent scum from targeting him while he was town. So not only does he respond like scum, but as if the scum would be distracted from an easy mislynch of one townie by a slightly more difficult mislynch of another.

In other words, he was asked to think as town defending himself from scum. His response was of scum trying to defend himself from town. That's about as scummy a tell as I've ever seen sprout from a RVS question.

You sure are judgy, aren't you?

S'the name of the game. I can't trust any of you, so what's the point of pretending that I can? If I see something suspicious, I'm going to either shout it to the heavens and hope other town pick up on it, or I'm going to keep silent long enough to see if I can bait the person into showing more of their hand.

borno: Why are you panicking? If you're town, you've got more important things to worry about. For that matter, Captain Ford's posts freaked you out a lot as well. You're actually starting to look suspicious, and this coming from someone who's seen you flailing nearly this badly as town before.

Your past few posts have all consisted of apologies over your freakout and off-topic conversation. If you have the time to post, why weren't you questioning anyone? Hell, even the time it takes to post "I don't really feel like posting at the moment." could be used to ask a simple question or two. Damn it, I can't help but this is going to repeat past events, but you're acting too scummy to leave alone borno.

He's posted twice. Once apologetic, and the second time to say he wasn't going to post on the weekend.

Why are you so quick to cast suspicion around, FlyingDice?

At the time of this posting, borno has posted four times in the past 6 days. He's evidently been on, and long enough to read things over, yet none of those posts have consisted of any real content. I'm not a cold-hearted bastard (well, I am, but let's leave that aside); I understand that there are times where you don't feel like posting, etc. But seriously, he's been active enough to apologize and unvote you, but not enough to scumhunt. When I'm not in the mood to play Mafia, I don't visit the thread. His behavior looks like an active lurk to me, and I call what I see.

See my previous response. Incidentally, voting me just after I drew attention to your shenanigans, and voting me because I call people on suspicious behavior? No, not scummy at all, Captain Ford. You're second on my list right now.

And since I'm here, can you explain Remuthra's actions?

He was a flailing newbie. That's about all I can figure, though I certainly don't blame anyone for being suspicious of him. If I had been one of the starters, I would have been tempted to policy-lynch him and hope that he was scum rather than just town who couldn't stay cool and on track under pressure. But I'm not going to attempt to dig apart what his train of thought might have been, any more than I'd ask any other replacement to do so for their own metaphorical albatross.

borno: ((Don't stress it for now, but if you honestly can't muster the energy to continue, please do sub out. It's no fun to be stuck in a Mafia game when you really don't want to play it, and it's not much fun being in an inactive one, either. Chin up. ))

You're not going to be lynched if you stop flailing and acting scummy. Probably. As I recall, you gave up in the exact same way the last time we played together. Don't do that. The worst thing a townie can do is give up and accept their death as inevitable. Even if you are lynched at the end of the day, better to have revealed new information than started going all "woe is me". For that matter, don't apologize for being an aggressive asshole. It's one of the better ways to get responses.

--

So. Reading back over that conversation during RVS just confirmed my suspicions of Spaghetti even more. He's thinking like scum and acting like scum, and at D1 that's about the best I can hope for in my vote.

Silver: Care to give us your own little list of suspicions, once you've had a chance to read over the thread?

[Captain Ford]

Captain Ford:

"He then claims..."
I said right when I posted it that I wanted superBlast to read it. Don't you dare try to tell me it wasn't good for him.

superBlast wasn't the one who was most affected in the context of the game, not by a long shot. You and I both know that wasn't what I was referring to.

No, no I didn't. You didn't bother to clarify, and I'm not psychic.

You posted a load of information that happened to be laden with sideways accusations when you could just have easily PMed it, then claimed that nobody needed to read it. That's a passive way to go about building a case, and looks sneaky as hell. The notes on borno are the ones relevant to the game as it stands, and you're purposely ignoring them while going on about how you just wanted to be helpful to super. Great. Super. I don't care.

Sorry? How am I ignoring them? I've used them in pressing borno, and responded to the issues he brought up. You haven't actually said anything specific about them, just kind of vaguely handwaved in their direction.

"claimed that nobody needed to read it" - Shut up. Seriously. I have never said that. You're going to make your own decision no matter what I think. I just don't care whether or not you've read them.

Spoiler: Rebuttal (click to show/hide)

"...he supposedly didn't think they were worth bringing up"
Blatant lie. I have said multiple times that I believed they were worth posting. I even said I have a PM from a player who thanked me profusely for posting them.

Allow me to make a rebuttal:

PPE:  Goddamnit, Ford.  [P.P.S. You just set yourself up to get lynched, assuming last votecount is correct.]

What? Dammit. I misread the votecount. I thought superBlast only had one vote from Nerjin.

Well, I'm not going to tie the vote back up. So Extension.

...and that took me about three hours. But it was productive.

I hope you feel so, because I'm not reading that wall of text.

I really, really hope not. Like I said, it's for superBlast mostly. It's also for me to refer back to.

If I'd known superBlast was on death row, I probably wouldn't have put in as much effort. But I did what I had to do to get a good grip on the game in a short timespan.

So in other words, they weren't worth posting in the context of the game, they were worth posting in the context of you helping super. And yet somehow they were posted in the game thread, despite their value being only for superBlast's enlightenment and your own back-referencing. That equates to them supposedly not being worth talking about in public view. You're contradicting yourself here.

I don't understand what the quote proves or how it relates to what you're saying. If I'd known that superBlast was close to being lynched when I joined, I would have concentrated on the cases against him first, rather than on getting caught up on the entire topic.

"despite their value being only for superBlast's enlightenment and your own back-referencing" - I didn't say that. I said "mostly". You really like to twist people's words, don't you?

Taking those notes took effort. If I was going to be eliminated from the game in short order, then it wouldn't make sense from a player's standpoint to get too invested in the game. If anything, it proves that the notes have value because they had a cost that I chose to pay.

"...which frankly I couldn't be arsed to read completely"
Uh huh. Case in point.

Except not at all. I skimmed it, noticed that it was a list of summaries with a bit of superficial analysis, and didn't bother wasting my time carefully reading and re-reading each entry. WoTs are fine, but unless they have some sort of real insight I don't really care.

Uh huh. Case in point.

"Oversaturation of data"
I have a bit of a reputation for being verbose. I include things that are supplemental -- showing my work, so to speak -- but always in spoilers, and always clearly marked so I don't waste people's time. If they want to verify my reasoning, they can. It's optional content, for people who have more time and interest.

There's no optional content in Mafia. There's useful data, insights, and analyses, and there's junk not worth posting. If you posted it, you obviously think it was worth mentioning, and yet you keep saying that it isn't necessary for us to read it. That's massively contradictory, and comes off very poorly on my proverbial sneak-o-meter.

I completely disagree. There are definitely times when I've skimmed or skipped over things that other players have linked to, spoilered or referenced. The only difference between a link to a wiki and a spoilered dissertation on theory (or an analysis of voting patterns, or notes on happenings in the game) is that one is in the thread, and one isn't.

I've gotten the "I'm not going to read that" response about a dozen times from other players. I have basic pattern recognition. I believe it's valuable, but I was also right that people were going to skip over it. I can't control that.

If you want to pull something out of it and question me about it, go right ahead. But don't call me scummy for something you haven't even bothered to read.

"appear active without saying too much of substance"
So you're saying that, if you take out the post with my personal notes in it, it looks like I'm lurking?

In the context of those notes? Yes. Hells yes. It's incredibly easy to throw together a post summarizing either someone's behavior or another player's case and leave it at that. I'm not saying that's all you've done, but you did dabble in it.

...

Bullshit. You're calling me out for lurking when we have NQT who hasn't posted in six days, when we have ICs that have posted less than a sixth as often as the newbies, and when I'm spending most of my time waiting for the rest of you to post.

And aren't you doing much the same thing?

Heh, no. I won't patronize you by calling that a nice try. I attempt to avoid posting irrelevancies, and when I do post I endeavor to fully address both anything posted towards me and any concerns or suspicions I may have at the time, as well as anything of tangental importance to the game (like, say, being away from internet connectivity).

Aha. No.

You are casting FoSes and votes without asking questions. Posting a lot of info but doing no investigation. You are doing the same thing.

Regarding Spaghetti: The question assumed he had a good reason to try to stay alive as a townie. I don't expect a newbie to realize such a situation doesn't exist in a BM. And we get some hypothetical questions about situations that don't come up in BMs. He dropped the ball on not pointing out the flaws in the question, but I'm not punishing him for an accurate answer.

At the time of this posting, borno has posted four times in the past 6 days. He's evidently been on, and long enough to read things over, yet none of those posts have consisted of any real content. I'm not a cold-hearted bastard (well, I am, but let's leave that aside); I understand that there are times where you don't feel like posting, etc. But seriously, he's been active enough to apologize and unvote you, but not enough to scumhunt. When I'm not in the mood to play Mafia, I don't visit the thread. His behavior looks like an active lurk to me, and I call what I see.

I certainly hope that you at least feel some responsibility to be active in a game if you've joined it.

See my previous response. Incidentally, voting me just after I drew attention to your shenanigans, and voting me because I call people on suspicious behavior? No, not scummy at all, Captain Ford. You're second on my list right now.

And you're first on mine. You're experienced enough to know the adage about asking questions if you're not totally sure. You haven't been asking questions with your votes. It's too early for you to be certain. But you don't need confirmation, do you, scumbag?

Lol. "Drew attention to my shenanigans" - Oh yes, like you're the first one to do that. Except, wait, borno actually read what he was responding to. You haven't.

And since I'm here, can you explain Remuthra's actions?

He was a flailing newbie. That's about all I can figure, though I certainly don't blame anyone for being suspicious of him. If I had been one of the starters, I would have been tempted to policy-lynch him and hope that he was scum rather than just town who couldn't stay cool and on track under pressure. But I'm not going to attempt to dig apart what his train of thought might have been, any more than I'd ask any other replacement to do so for their own metaphorical albatross.

Fair enough. I guess you won't mind if my vote hangs out here for a little while longer, then.

So. Reading back over that conversation during RVS just confirmed my suspicions of Spaghetti even more. He's thinking like scum and acting like scum, and at D1 that's about the best I can hope for in my vote.

Fair enough. You can't very well vote yourself, so I guess you'll have to make do with the second-scummiest target.

For clarity, I'm voting you for:
1. Remuthra's behavior, which you can't control, but reflects on you nonetheless. Simply dismissing it as "flailing newbie syndrome" reflects even more poorly on you.
2. Word-twisting and exaggeration.
3. Passing judgment but not probing for more information.

For a recent replacement, you are too satisfied with your reads, and for an experienced player you are too conservative in your approach.

[Shakerag]

[Okay, let's all try to be a bit more productive here.

Deathsword:  You too.  Votecount.  Also, release the prods!]


[Flying Dice and Captain Ford:  Okay, as an IC especially and even generally as a player, I do try to read over everything everyone posts carefully and follow along with their arguments.  Having said that, if my eyes are starting to glaze over every time I read a post from either of you, I imagine a lot of the other players are as bad off or worse in trying to follow what the both of you are saying. 

However, that isn't a free pass for either of you to start shitposting.  I do applaud your thoroughness, but both of you need an appointment for a brevity booster shot, I think.  Try to keep replies to a handful of your best points.  Deconstructing someone's post line-by-line actually tends to weaken your case.  You get an oversaturation of info and walls of text that people start to fail to process completely. 

And, god, please, don't quote large chunks/chains of replies.  If you're a good little Mafia player and keep the link data in your quotes, we can just follow that backwards if we need a refresher on the conversation.  If I wanted to see great pyramids I'd go to Egypt.

So, along those lines, pick what you feel are your best points, and summarize your cases/arguments on each other.]

Unvote for now while I try to get a fresh feel on the game. 

Extend as a courtesy for SilverDragon.  Who should totally get in here and post something constructive.