Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

[Loud Whispers]

Last time when Germany made a radical solution to similar problem, they got whole world bombing them with hate.

Yeah, and it also fixed Russia's overpopulation issue, Germans keep the green tradition alive (albeit, green in the manner of a Mongolian warlord)

And the many Greeks and Italians that came here during that time also integrated very well. Here's the difference, though - Finns weren't very different culturally from Swedes. This is not the case with people from the middle east, there is a much bigger culture gap there. Most importantly, however, was that Sweden then was undergoing one of the biggest economical growth periods in history (For reference, Sweden had,at the start of WW2 been one of the poorest countries in Europe), and those Finns, as well as the Greeks and the Italians, came here as workforce immigration. Unlike now, there were lots of no-education-needed jobs for both them and the Swedish lower class, and lots of opportunity to make a future for oneself. That is not the case now. There's not enough jobs to support the education-less or "wrongly" educated population, let alone even more refugees. There are no socialists who care about the improvements of the lower classes at the helm. There's not even enough interest in the well being of the people to build enough houses to counter the acute housing crisis Sweden is currently undergoing even without a massive influx of refugees, because that would lower the overinflated real estate market (which by the way is going to crash very soon anyway). The situation is not the same as in the 50s and 60s in any way.

Sweden is multicultural now, it doesn't matter

[Ukrainian Ranger]

And the many Greeks and Italians that came here during that time also integrated very well. Here's the difference, though - Finns weren't very different culturally from Swedes.

What is your fear here? That Syrians will assimilate you? That you will have ethnic conflicts? That they will form isolated enclaves that will initiate separatism later? There are ways to counter those issues. You will get problems. Helping people usually involves effort, discomfort and sacrificing something.

Most importantly, however, was that Sweden then was undergoing one of the biggest economical growth periods in history. That is not the case now.

Oh... We Ukrainians really need to say "Hey, guys from Donbass. You see, we have a double digit fall of our GDP this year, can you, please, GTFO and go back to your home? You don't have a home anymore? Not our problem."
You may say that it is different because they are citizens of our country but an official EU ideology uses "all people have the same rights no matter what is their place of birth" dogma, no?

[Helgoland]

You should become the public face of Ukrainian nationalism, UR. Your positions are more progressive than those of ~30% of Europe's politicians.

[SirQuiamus]

And the many Greeks and Italians that came here during that time also integrated very well. Here's the difference, though - Finns weren't very different culturally from Swedes. This is not the case with people from the middle east, there is a much bigger culture gap there. Most importantly, however, was that Sweden then was undergoing one of the biggest economical growth periods in history (For reference, Sweden had,at the start of WW2 been one of the poorest countries in Europe), and those Finns, as well as the Greeks and the Italians, came here as workforce immigration. Unlike now, there were lots of no-education-needed jobs for both them and the Swedish lower class, and lots of opportunity to make a future for oneself. That is not the case now. There's not enough jobs to support the education-less or "wrongly" educated population, let alone even more refugees. There are no socialists who care about the improvements of the lower classes at the helm. There's not even enough interest in the well being of the people to build enough houses to counter the acute housing crisis Sweden is currently undergoing even without a massive influx of refugees, because that would lower the overinflated real estate market (which by the way is going to crash very soon anyway). The situation is not the same as in the 50s and 60s in any way.

Well, you've certainly got a point there. The fact is that the Swedish export industry was experiencing such a boom at the time that foreign workers were absolutely necessary to sustain the growth. The reason why the Finns integrated so seamlessly was not so much because of cultural similarity, but because pretty much everyone who wasn't selling illegal hooch at Slussen got a job at Trollhättan or some other industrial hot spot. "Those were the Days" and all that, but the GDP per capita is nonetheless much higher nowadays. If only there was some way to distribute it more evenly...

[Ukrainian Ranger]

You should become the public face of Ukrainian nationalism, UR. Your positions are more progressive than those of ~30% of Europe's politicians.

Uniting all brands of Ukrainian nationalists under my rule would be better than becoming their speaker

[scriver]

And the many Greeks and Italians that came here during that time also integrated very well. Here's the difference, though - Finns weren't very different culturally from Swedes. This is not the case with people from the middle east, there is a much bigger culture gap there. Most importantly, however, was that Sweden then was undergoing one of the biggest economical growth periods in history (For reference, Sweden had,at the start of WW2 been one of the poorest countries in Europe), and those Finns, as well as the Greeks and the Italians, came here as workforce immigration. Unlike now, there were lots of no-education-needed jobs for both them and the Swedish lower class, and lots of opportunity to make a future for oneself. That is not the case now. There's not enough jobs to support the education-less or "wrongly" educated population, let alone even more refugees. There are no socialists who care about the improvements of the lower classes at the helm. There's not even enough interest in the well being of the people to build enough houses to counter the acute housing crisis Sweden is currently undergoing even without a massive influx of refugees, because that would lower the overinflated real estate market (which by the way is going to crash very soon anyway). The situation is not the same as in the 50s and 60s in any way.

Well, you've certainly got a point there. The fact is that the Swedish export industry was experiencing such a boom at the time that foreign workers were absolutely necessary to sustain the growth. The reason why the Finns integrated so seamlessly was not so much because of cultural similarity, but because pretty much everyone who wasn't selling illegal hooch at Slussen got a job at Trollhättan or some other industrial hot spot. "Those were the Days" and all that, but the GDP per capita is nonetheless much higher nowadays.

I am not going "everything was better in my fantasy of the 50's" in any way, if that's what you're insinuating. And it's not just about working or prosperity in itself, but also that work brings you out of your shell into the world. Refugees have to meet Swedes to be able to become Swedes. Furthermore, of course cultural similarities matters a lot for how well a people integrates into another culture. You're not really disputing that, do you?

If only there was some way to distribute it more evenly...

No way that is happening in today's society. I'm not going to go "we should accept even more refugees now because in my utopian society things would be better!". I don't see any chance of socialism returning in the near future, so taking actions that require the return of socialism to succeed would be foolish.

[Loud Whispers]

You should become the public face of Ukrainian nationalism, UR. Your positions are more progressive than those of ~30% of Europe's politicians.

Uniting all brands of Ukrainian nationalists under my rule would be better than becoming their speaker

Become Ukrainian Ataturk, it is your destiny

_{LW is not responsible for horrendous human losses as a result of becoming Ataslav}

[Helgoland]

Well, you could first do the one, and then the other. Remember, Stalin started as a secretary. To be honest, he stayed a secretary, but oh boy did his secretariat gain in power

[Vilanat]

Here's a funny little fact: Around 500 000 Finns have emigrated into Sweden between the 1950s and present day, and despite decades of "unrestricted mass immigration" from developing countries, they still make up the largest foreign-born demographic in Sweden. Many Finnish expatriates were originally from extremely poor circumstances, and back in the 60s and 70s they were regarded as the official "niggers" of Sweden, i.e. the ones that were deemed impossible to integrate due to "cultural differences" and whatnot. In those days there was plenty of talk about alcoholism and elevated crime rates associated with the immigrant population, and the press came up with a number of highly successful memes featuring the "Slussen Guerrilla," a bunch of booze-peddling delinquent Finns who had taken over the sluice area in central Stockholm. Cue forward a forty years, and absolutely no-one in Sweden pays any attention to people of Finnish origin, or even considers them "foreigners" in any meaningful sense of the word. Even the highly xenophobic Sweden Democrats are now welcoming Finns as fellow members of the Nordic Master Race, which is totally arbitrary bollocks since Finns, like other Uralic peoples, are genetically far removed from Germanic Europeans.

The refugee crisis is an enormous challenge for the faltering welfare state, but such challenges have been overcome before, and in less affluent times.

Even disregarding this low figure comparing to the current crisis and the near future predictions of it, Cultural differences like between Swedish speaking Finns and Swedes is nothing like Mid eastern and Europeans. consider this little statistic: According to the World Bank, Less than 13% of the females in Syria were employed even before the civil war. this has less to do with lack of jobs and more to do with a tradition of women staying back home. there is even a written law in Syria that says a woman must get her husband's permission to go to work. and Syria is considered a more progressive country in the Mid East.

Integration is not about expecting them to learn a new language, it is about expecting them to undergo a total revolution in their way of everyday life, behaving and thinking while learning a new language, set of skills and other smaller cultural differences.

[Loud Whispers]

Seriously I don't get how people don't see the difference between immigration rates of 8,000 a year and 330,000 a year

[Ukrainian Ranger]

People see the difference. People fail to believe that it can't be solved with some effort.

this has less to do with lack of jobs and more to do with a tradition of women staying back home. there is even a written law in Syria that says a woman must get her husband's permission to go to work. and Syria is considered a more progressive country in the Mid East.

Isn't it good that you will give a chance for women to actually work and rise beyond what they could dream in Syria. Of course this will need some work and guts to oppose Islam and try to deal with Stockholm syndrome most(all?) Muslim women get soon after the birth.


I can only agree that letting refugees in, settle them in camps and do nothing is a real bad idea. But there are alternatives with doing something after you let people in.

[notquitethere]

Here's a free policy suggestion, UR: Ukraine should allow free citizenship for anyone who will take up arms in the east. Two birds with one stone.

[mainiac]

This is not the case with people from the middle east, there is a much bigger culture gap there.

^^The argument that has been made about all immigrants ever.

It's just like can't you see the frickin' pattern here?  That shit doesn't look alien to you because your fucking grandparents assimilated them already.  You grew up thinking that those weird and foreign customs were normal.  Your grandkids will be confused why you thought that the Syrians were weird.

[Sergarr]

Here's a free policy suggestion, UR: Ukraine should allow free citizenship for anyone who will take up arms in the east. Two birds with one stone.

Free citizenship for jihadists? What could possibly go wrong.

(actual refugees would not run away from one war only to join another one, so the contingent of the ones who would is rather predictable)

[Ukrainian Ranger]

EU way to solve problems:

a) War in Syria starts.  Don't lift a finger to prevent a huge flow of refugee. Because international law, war is expensive, we can't allow our soldiers die and more solid excuses
b) Refugees start to flow in countries bordering Syria. Don't do anything  to help those countries. Pretend that they can handle that alone. Keep doing nothing to stop the war in Syria.
d) Small trickles of refugee start to move in EU. Ignore the problem. Treat them like your usual illegal migrants.
e) Syrian Civil war spillovers to Iraq. Major radical ethnic cleansing prone force emerges. Do nothing! After all there are no decision of a Holy United Nations Security council (Real Reason: everyone expected that USA will do the job once again. )
f) Now there are huge amount of refugees (surprise!) and EU politicians seem to discuss two variants
f1) Let hundreds of thousands in, settle them in refugee camps, give them some money on a monthly basis  and then... ignore resulting problems
f2) Pretend that nothing happens, close the borders, and hope that they will go to filthy rich Saudi Arabia (BTW, how can any person who says that he is a liberal even consider sending any woman to Saudi Arabia? It is like sending refugee from African wars to South Africa back in 1960s)
And guess what? EU ignores Russian intervention in Syria that will cause even more refugees.

Here's a free policy suggestion, UR: Ukraine should allow free citizenship for anyone who will take up arms in the east. Two birds with one stone.

Simple solutions never work. There are way to many problems in this idea. Besides I doubt they will bring tanks and artillery with them like those new "citizens" of "DNR" and "LNR"