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[mainiac]

I hardly think that they are going to pull exports out of a hat without competativeness first.

And of course "become competitive" and "0% inflation with an overvalued currency" are pretty much impossible to have together.

There's got to be a flaw here: Following this reasoning, it is flat out impossible for the US to have a trade deficit...

I gave you the single period analysis for the sake of simplicity.  In the two period analysis then you apply a discount rate to future repayment and say that instead of China repaying to Europe with an equal amount of goods at time T, they repay with goods plus interest in time T+1 after the appreciation of some asset that was used to pay for the Euros used to import from Germany.  And of course you can put additional layers of complexity on top of that... it's a rather broad field.

If the rest of the Eurozone imports less,

With an overvalued currency?

It's not like Germany has some sort of magic wand here.

The "magic" is the EU being committed to extremely unorthodox monetary policies.

I admit though, this argument is interesting. The only thing that bugs me is that you act like deficits just magically appear, without the deficitary country having any influence on what's happening.

In certain extremely rare conditions, fiscal consolidation by some parties is counter productive.

Oh, and could you elaborate on your last point? And describe how you'd transform the Euro into a well-functioning currency - that ought to be interesting to hear.

I dont know where to start.  You are talking about needing to redesign the most ambitious macroeconomic project in history.  There are a couple of "gimmies" like actually hitting the inflation targets but the gimmies alone aren't enough.  It's like you have a football player staggering around the field with their shoelaces tied together, smacking themselves in the face with a tennis racket.  Your attention is going to be drawn to the gross failures but just fixing those wont make them any good, just make them  not horrible.

[smjjames]

The heck Russia!?! Why did you go and buzz the west coast with your bombers on July 4th?

I know the incident itself is old news, but CNN is reporting it now on TV for some reason, and they did have an article not long after the actual incident.

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/russian-bombers-flew-within-40-miles-of-n-california-coast/

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/09/politics/russian-bombers-u-s-intercept-july-4/index.html

I know, I know, we're supposed to keep American stuff out of the Europol thread, but hey, Russia is in Europe*.

*I know the Russian forumers would say otherwise, but lets not get into the whole semantics of it, we've been there before.

[Sergarr]

The heck Russia!?! Why did you go and buzz the west coast with your bombers on July 4th?

National dickwaving, of course!

[Owlbread]

A while ago there were debates in the UK parliament on the franchise for the EU referendum. The Tories made sure that only British citizens could vote, which disenfranchised many thousands of people. The SNP protested this of course because in the Scottish Independence referendum anyone resident in Scotland could vote. I came across a good quote from one of these debates, made by one of the best SNP MPs (in my opinion), Tommy Sheppard, a Northern Irish-born comedy club owner who used to be a leading member of the Labour Party in Hackney and in Scotland (before Blairites kicked him out):

“When I made my maiden speech, a Conservative Member -I think he was trying to be kind and helpful - said, in an attempt to endear himself to Scottish National Party Members, that he had Scottish blood in his veins. I did not get the chance to say so at the time… I have none whatsoever in mine.. It is not a question of identity or genetics; it is a question of residence.”

[Loud Whispers]

Pardon Owlbread but I cannot physically comprehend why anyone who isn't a British citizen should have any say in the future of Britain. It is laughable that any rich Sergei, Li Kiang and Cherie should have any right to set British taxes or British sovereignty because they've bought lands in London, or any bloke who crossed Calais or just walked in right through the EU into the nearest estate should have any right in any of the above just because they've set foot on the island. The tories have made sure the British will get to decide on their own future in the EU, which was the point of the referendum. It is not an EU referendum where the EU will get to vote to keep the UK in the EU on behalf of the UK.

[Antsan]

You see, that is one problem with anything but anarchism: Everyone has different ideas what should constitute a nation.

[Owlbread]

Pardon Owlbread but I cannot physically comprehend why anyone who isn't a British citizen should have any say in the future of Britain. It is laughable that any rich Sergei, Li Kiang and Cherie should have any right to set British taxes or British sovereignty because they've bought lands in London, or any bloke who crossed Calais or just walked in right through the EU into the nearest estate should have any right in any of the above just because they've set foot on the island. The tories have made sure the British will get to decide on their own future in the EU, which was the point of the referendum. It is not an EU referendum where the EU will get to vote to keep the UK in the EU on behalf of the UK.

In the UK we make distinction between people who are "permanent residents" and who are "British subjects". In the independence referendum permanent residents could vote, they didn't need to have citizenship. I think legal permanent residence is all that's needed, because the requirements to be recognised as a permanent resident involve living here for 5 years or something. There are cases of people who have lived in Scotland for 10, even 20+ years after emigrating from places like Poland who cannot vote in the EU referendum because they are not British citizens, just legal permanent residents. In my mind permanent residents are "the British", we don't need any other qualifications.

A good example of someone who is not able to vote in the coming EU referendum is Christian Allard, a Franco-Scot who came to Scotland over 25 years ago and is now MSP for the North East region in the Scottish Parliament. He's "British" enough to get elected as a member of parliament but not "British" enough to vote next year, apparently.

[smjjames]

The whole thing sounds like a relic from the days of The British Empire.

[mainiac]

Going so long without national disaster or conquest does give time for the anachronisms to clean up without getting cleared away.  Of course that's a small price to pay for relative peace and prosperity.

[Zrk2]

The heck Russia!?! Why did you go and buzz the west coast with your bombers on July 4th?

National dickwaving, of course!

My second favourite sort of dick waving.

[Loud Whispers]

In the UK we make distinction between people who are "permanent residents" and who are "British subjects". In the independence referendum permanent residents could vote, they didn't need to have citizenship. I think legal permanent residence is all that's needed, because the requirements to be recognised as a permanent resident involve living here for 5 years or something. There are cases of people who have lived in Scotland for 10, even 20+ years after emigrating from places like Poland who cannot vote in the EU referendum because they are not British citizens, just legal permanent residents. In my mind permanent residents are "the British", we don't need any other qualifications.

A good example of someone who is not able to vote in the coming EU referendum is Christian Allard, a Franco-Scot who came to Scotland over 25 years ago and is now MSP for the North East region in the Scottish Parliament. He's "British" enough to get elected as a member of parliament but not "British" enough to vote next year, apparently.

He's British enough for the SNP, which as we've already established holds the view that anyone who lands on the nation has the right to determine the future of the nation.
When British citizens can be the only ones to vote on the future of Britain, you exclude foreign criminals, illegal immigrants, foreign landholders and anyone who lacks English competency and most importantly - is actually invested in the future of the British nation, because they took the time and passed the test and showed they had made being British a part of them.
A permanent resident who remains in Britain for however long and does not so much as apply for British citizenship is the clearest indication of someone who likes Britain but will not go so far as to subject themselves to Britain, and is not someone personally invested with the welfare of the Isles over the welfare of their selves or their home country. By definition a citizen is a member of the state. Why should non-members expect any say in a state that they are no part of? Get citizenship, even dual-citizenship if needs be, get a say - you'll have proven that you are invested in the nation in every sense of the word, and are a part of it.
The proof is in the pudding of the rosy view that the world can all join hands and sing together about how Britain is a commonwealth for the world to enjoy and the hard reality that this is a horrible idea and you will just lose your control of your own nation. Certain roles in the British armed forces and security services are barred and locked, no way you can get into them unless you have British citizenship. Because giving those roles to people who aren't even British citizens is not only stupid - it is dangerous. And they're dealing with a few thousand people who are fighting for Britain, these are people who you can probably trust to not hate the nation they're fighting for - giving the vote to anyone who lives here? That's just anyone who owns a house here. They don't even have the vetting that the forces have, because they only vet for who can get a mortgage or who knows a rich someone, or who knows who to bunk with or get council housing from e.t.c. That is anyone who has made the decision to move here because they're looking to take something out of Britain, a job prospects, a good education, available healthcare, housing, childcare, London, whatever - there is a lot to offer.
And until they've done something to validate any attachment to this country beyond self-interest, like say joining the forces or applying for citizenship, this is still someone who has not expressed any sense of actually wishing to be a part of the nation and contribute to the welfare of the nation.

The whole thing sounds like a relic from the days of The British Empire.

It's a relic from the days where there were people actually trying to retain sovereignty. No borders, no citizenship, no central banks, currencies or cultures - all of these things stand in the way of creating the EU superstate.


Go to Singapore without citizenship and live there for 20-50 years, and then try to vote in their elections. They will deport you, and that is after they have been relaxing their citizenship criteria. That is because alongside the rights that citizenship affords you, including things like welfare and an increased likelihood to not be executed by Indonesian courts - and yes, to vote on the future of your nation, these rights come with obligations and responsibilities. Pay your taxes. Not shit on your doorstep. Keeping the peace with your neighbours. Following British law. Vote on the future of your nation.

Buying a house here does not come close to it. There must be some joke abound somewhere about confounding Frenchmen infiltrating parliament to break up the union and subject her forever to Eurocrat rule.

I honestly just think the real reason why the SNP wants to extend the vote to anyone who lives here is that they're banking on EU residents to vote in favour of the EU. Doesn't matter what's left of the state when your end goal is to erase it with the blue washing cloth and aerial stars.

[Owlbread]

He's British enough for the SNP, which as we've already established holds the view that anyone who lands on the nation has the right to determine the future of the nation.

Well, if they "land" here and live here for many years, surely they're a part of that nation?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When British citizens can be the only ones to vote on the future of Britain, you exclude foreign criminals, illegal immigrants, foreign landholders and anyone who lacks English competency and most importantly - is actually invested in the future of the British nation, because they took the time and passed the test and showed they had made being British a part of them.
A permanent resident who remains in Britain for however long and does not so much as apply for British citizenship is the clearest indication of someone who likes Britain but will not go so far as to subject themselves to Britain, and is not someone personally invested with the welfare of the Isles over the welfare of their selves or their home country. By definition a citizen is a member of the state. Why should non-members expect any say in a state that they are no part of? Get citizenship, even dual-citizenship if needs be, get a say - you'll have proven that you are invested in the nation in every sense of the word, and are a part of it.
The proof is in the pudding of the rosy view that the world can all join hands and sing together about how Britain is a commonwealth for the world to enjoy and the hard reality that this is a horrible idea and you will just lose your control of your own nation. Certain roles in the British armed forces and security services are barred and locked, no way you can get into them unless you have British citizenship. Because giving those roles to people who aren't even British citizens is not only stupid - it is dangerous. And they're dealing with a few thousand people who are fighting for Britain, these are people who you can probably trust to not hate the nation they're fighting for - giving the vote to anyone who lives here? That's just anyone who owns a house here. They don't even have the vetting that the forces have, because they only vet for who can get a mortgage or who knows a rich someone, or who knows who to bunk with or get council housing from e.t.c. That is anyone who has made the decision to move here because they're looking to take something out of Britain, a job prospects, a good education, available healthcare, housing, childcare, London, whatever - there is a lot to offer.
And until they've done something to validate any attachment to this country beyond self-interest, like say joining the forces or applying for citizenship, this is still someone who has not expressed any sense of actually wishing to be a part of the nation and contribute to the welfare of the nation.

I've spoilered what you've said because you keep repeating stuff over and over like "just landed here" and "owns a house here". That's not what I mean. Permanent residence means you are a permanent resident as in you live here full time like anyone else. You can be a British citizen like my great aunt who has lived in the south of Ireland for about 60-70 years. I think she can vote next year, as a British subject I mean. Surely this isn't right? The "citizenry" should just refer to the people who permanently live and work in the country.

Buying a house here does not come close to it.

Again with this stuff. You misunderstood what I was referring to, I'm sorry. It's not "buying a house", it's living here for an extended period of time. I think it's the same criteria for English migrants to Scotland who want to qualify for free tuition. A good friend of mine was concerned he'd have to live here for another 5 years before he would qualify.

There must be some joke abound somewhere about confounding Frenchmen infiltrating parliament to break up the union and subject her forever to Eurocrat rule.

Yes, just as I'm sure there would be jokes about English people "infiltrating the Scottish parliament to preserve the union" or something. There isn't, though, but that's probably because the only English-born people in the Scottish parliament I know are all members of the SNP.

I honestly just think the real reason why the SNP wants to extend the vote to anyone who lives here is that they're banking on EU residents to vote in favour of the EU. Doesn't matter what's left of the state when your end goal is to erase it with the blue washing cloth and aerial stars.

You really need to calm down, Loud Whispers. This is just getting daft now, e.g. the "SNP want to erase the state and replace it with United States of Europe" stuff. Can you give me facts and figures showing that the number of EU residents in this country voting in favour of the EU would massively sway the vote in England in favour, or something? Whatever it is you're concerned about?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

You really need to calm down, Loud Whispers. This is just getting daft now, e.g. the "SNP want to erase the state and replace it with United States of Europe" stuff.

plot twist SNP are CIA shills
Scotland is already the 51st Secret State
How's the weather in Langley this time of year Agentbread?

[Loud Whispers]

He's British enough for the SNP, which as we've already established holds the view that anyone who lands on the nation has the right to determine the future of the nation.

Well, if they "land" here and live here for many years, surely they're a part of that nation?

I am landed in other countries, have family in other countries and have lived there for many years. Am I a part of those nations? Of course. But I am not in any way a part of the political class or machinations because those are not my countries. I am not going to revoke my British citizenship and make the full commitment of becoming a subject to their states, or even just getting a dual citizenship. I am a part of that nation in the sense of a particle, I am not a part of that nation in the sense that wherever I walk I am an ambassador of that nation because it is an integral part of me. Of those nations? They mean a lot to me, but they are not my nations, and I would not dare to assume any power in the say of their nation just because I've lived there. Living there is quite easy, it just involves residence. Even easier when there are no border controls.

I've spoilered what you've said because you keep repeating stuff over and over like "just landed here" and "owns a house here". That's not what I mean. Permanent residence means you are a permanent resident as in you live here full time like anyone else. You can be a British citizen like my great aunt who has lived in the south of Ireland for about 60-70 years. I think she can vote next year, as a British subject I mean. Surely this isn't right? The "citizenry" should just refer to the people who permanently live and work in the country.

That's what I'm referring here too. Heck, a quarter of my family in Britain are not citizens but are in fact permanent residents who have been here for decades under permanent residency. My views remain the same. Your great-aunt is a citizen. She can vote.

Buying a house here does not come close to it.

Again with this stuff. You misunderstood what I was referring to, I'm sorry. It's not "buying a house", it's living here for an extended period of time. I think it's the same criteria for English migrants to Scotland who want to qualify for free tuition.

Mixing bb codes there
And you're right, it's not just buying a house, it's also any residency.

Yes, just as I'm sure there would be jokes about English people "infiltrating the Scottish parliament to preserve the union" or something. There isn't, though, but that's probably because the only-born English people in the Scottish parliament I know are all members of the SNP.

And there you have it

You really need to calm down, Loud Whispers. This is just getting daft now, e.g. the "SNP want to erase the state and replace it with United States of Europe" stuff. Can you give me facts and figures showing that the number of EU residents in this country voting in favour of the EU would massively sway the vote in England in favour, or something? Whatever it is you're concerned about?

Well you would think I've made myself quite clear on what I'm concerned about, and it's the EU. I type quite calmly, unless there is ALL CAPS you can assume that's how I intend my stuff to be read. Shitposting on the internet is itself quite a slow conversational medium.
If you must know, I do not think the SNP wishes to erase the state and replace it with the United States of Europe. They may, but really they're just useful pawns. It is not some daftness Owlbread, the trade union is not an economic one, it is a political one. The Euro took away the nation states of Europe's ability to set their own interest rates, their own monetary policies, the EU took away the nation states of Europe's ability to distinguish between their citizens, the EU took away the nation states of Europe's ability to control their own borders. What happens when you have a nation without borders on the map? Without citizens of their own nation, but instead of the EU? When you have a parliament whose teeth is pulled one by one until it is nothing more than a relic at worst and regional management at best? You get a toothless dog who can only chew on the soft food the good master provides.
Luckily the UK has been in quite the privileged position where as an island erasing its borders has been as easy as filling up the channel (it's taking work), her citizens are still British over the nondescript grey blob that has been coopted as a single "European" identity as aversed to the diverse array that once was the patchwork of European identities, we never adopted the Euro and all the companies and lefties who said we had to join the Euro or die were proven hilariously wrong and the UK can pull out for as long as Cameron does not screw us over with a poisoned referendum, because he loves Juncker with a passion.
And it's not exactly going to end if the Scottish become independent from the UK and subject themselves to the Eurocrats in Brussels; they're campaigning for a common military, common fiscal policy and even more horrendous ways to expand their little project by wasting their euros on shilling for support and expanding instead of actually improving any of the European states that is not Germany. That is not what an economic union sounds like, that is what a nation state sounds like. That is what an Empire sounds like.
Scottish independence would pretty well kneecap British euroskeptics, emboldening the Europhiles' vision even as southern Europe falls apart. The basis upon which a parliament has power is the ability to set taxes and interests rates. Britain still has both powers, her parliament still means a damn, and I don't even think squabbling over left this and right that is worth a damn when the EU will continue to centralize power until there are no nations of Europe on the map. Commentators will talk only of America, China and the EU. They already have, but only then they won't even bother talking about the triangle of Frogs, Sauerkraut and Buckteeth. It astonishes me that you'll still find plenty of MEPs boasting of how the EU is an Empire that expanded peacefully, blissfully unaware of what message that sends to Euroskeptics, as if creating an Empire over democracy is admirable because you did it without firing a bullet.

And if you want me to find stats on how much EU residents could affect the outcome; first and foremost I don't particularly care - on principle I am defending this. On accusing the SNP of just looking to get easy votes, massively swaying the votes is really not much worse than significantly swaying the votes or even having an affect on the votes at all. Any is too much. It's quite bad any way you look at it. If you want stats, surprisingly no one bothered to poll people who won't be able to vote in the next election and would likely vote in one direction anyways. Your googlefu is really as good as my guess, if you find anything on the pro-eu stance of EU citizens living in the UK feel free to post it because I found nothing.

[Helgoland]

I reject the phrasing 'took away'. All these states signed over those rights and options on their own. Nobody forced them.