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[Mr. Strange]

It's down to those lazy greeks vs. reality:
https://fsaraceno.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/2015_06_reforms_greece_2.png

That... is one fucking horrible graph. Misleading as hell.

Last time I checked Germany wasn't among largest spenders on public sector in EU, while Greece was (about on par with Finland and Sweden, but with much less income and property relative to spending and debt) so when compared to total budget, 10% increse in social spending isn't even on the same scale as the changes in Greece. So what is that graph supposed to show? German economy benefitting from this whole situation? Nothing new there. Greek economy was unsustainable for a long time (and that's the reason we have this whole crisis), of course they will have to balance their expences to their level of income, and Austerity™ will fuck up Greece because it cuts their income=more Austerity™ which will fuck up Greece because it cuts their income=more Austerity™ which will fuck up Greece because it cuts their income=more Austerity™ etc etc.
None of that changes the fact that Greek economy needs complete restructuring to make it sustainable, and as for social spending that means giving up some of those crazy benefits they were giving earlier (and this is coming from a Fin). Except that they have pre-existing debt that also needs to be paid, so just getting rid of the excess spending isn't enough, and part of the loaned money comes from private sector who want their money paid back on time, with interest...

So, reality.
To me, it seems to be down to Greek politicians fucking it up for decades before EU politicians decide to fuck things up with Austerity™ that Syriza fucked up and now nobody trusts Greece to do what they promised to do, so they truly are fucked up.

Not unless there is some sucker to take the red ink off the balance sheet, like the Greek, German and French taxpayers.

Ask Trump?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Not unless there is some sucker to take the red ink off the balance sheet, like the Greek, German and French taxpayers.

Ask Trump?

Once the vertical merger of NAFTA with the EU is complete under Transformational President Trump, his first order of business will be to put those dirty Euro-Mexican rapists back to work in the new and invigorating free market restoration period. No more lazy socialist schemes under this hard but fair vision of the future, because it's time to get off the dole and back to productivity. Can't schlump the Trump^(TM)!

[mainiac]

Last time I checked Germany wasn't among largest spenders on public sector in EU, while Greece was

I dont know what the European equivalent of Fox News is, but stop getting your news from there:
https://fsaraceno.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/2015_06_reforms_greece_11.png
^ Cuz what you are saying is that thing that's the opposite of true.

This graph however understates the issue because Greece and Spain have a massive output gaps so showing as a percentage of GDP, as this graph does, massively overstates Greek and Germany spending.  Germany is in fact the one who is devoting the greatest fraction of it's resources taking care of it's citizens.

Greece had problems back in 2010.  The Troika said "Do what we say and solve it".  Economists howled because the Troika was speaking insanity.  Greece caved and did what the Troika said.  The result was disaster.  And now people are insisting that Greece didn't do what it did.  Because to do that would be to admit that the ideas were complete and utter shit, that Greece had more then paid penance and the situation was now Germany and France's fault.  And god knows we can't have that.  So forget reality, Greece never cut spending!

It's clearly an attempt to delay the issue to keep Greece in the Eurozone at all cost and it is generally not seen as a great victory for anyone. Next negotiation tournament is going to start within the next 3 months probably.

I dont know if this is a language/cultural thing like the "debt" means "guilt" in German but "massive structural reforms in a short timeframe" and "delay the issue" are very different concepts in American english at least.  Cuz massive structural reforms is what Greece just agreed to for the third time.  It's true that these aren't as massive as the previous two but that's like saying the Baltic isn't as massive as the Pacific and the Atlantic.

"Delay the issue" would in fact have been far more generous then what Greece was asking for.  Delay the issue would be giving Greece another six month punt without any demanded reforms.  And here's the funny thing, if Germany had delayed the issue over and over again for long enough, the problem would have gotten a hell of a lot more manageable.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

In more cheerful Euro news, proud, independent Scottish man produces first Fife-grown wine, which is utterly horrible.

It’s not yet drinkable but, that said, I enjoyed it in a bizarre, masochistic way.

Owlbread, Chateau Largo review when

[smjjames]

In more cheerful Euro news, proud, independent Scottish man produces first Fife-grown wine, which is utterly horrible.

It’s not yet drinkable but, that said, I enjoyed it in a bizarre, masochistic way.

Owlbread, Chateau Largo review when

My first thought on that was 'isn't a fife a musical instrument?' lol

[MarcAFK]

Well, it can probably be made drinkable after distillation using musty peat moss!

[Mr. Strange]

This here, this is what I was talking about people not talking about the same issue.

Greece had problems back in 2010.

Greece had problems long before that, 2010 is when they were finally revealed. It got into eurozone back in 2000 using faked statistics that hid their budget deficit and real size of debt. 2010 Greece credit rating got downgraded to junk class and costs to maintain their debt skyrocketed, but that was only because people finally understood how severe the situation was, not because the crisis was somehow created then and there. Greece was living on borrowed money, had been for more than a decade, and it's budget deficit meant that it had had to to keep borrowing more and more to pay it's previous debts all that time. That is not  sustainable in any way, and was only possible as long as Greece got loans on low interest, and that's what ended in 2010.

And now people are insisting that Greece didn't do what it did.  Because to do that would be to admit that the ideas were complete and utter shit, that Greece had more then paid penance and the situation was now Germany and France's fault.

In all the news I have seen it's been very clear what Greece hasn't done; budget cuts they agreeded to do in Austerity™ Part 2 back in around 2012, which left hole size of ~1.5 billion € that they couldn't get from anywhere else in their budget, and couldn't pay before the deadline 30.6. Now that's tiny amount considering whole project had cost ~200 billion overall to the EU at that point, but it's not questionable that Syriza refused to make cuts that were requirement for furter aid to Greece while still asking for more money.
Obviously, no deal was made till now.
Also, Greek economy being shit was Greece doing, not France and Germany. _{Well, not entirely...}

"Delay the issue" would in fact have been far more generous then what Greece was asking for.  Delay the issue would be giving Greece another six month punt without any demanded reforms.  And here's the funny thing, if Germany had delayed the issue over and over again for long enough, the problem would have gotten a hell of a lot more manageable.

That does not compute.
From before 2000 Greece was spending more than it was making and had to take debt just to pay the interest on previous debt on top of the debt they had to take to cover their annual budget deficit.
EU could pour free money to cover the Greek budget deficit AND their loan interest costs to stop things from escalating, but that would change nothing untill Greece balances it's expences with it's incomes.
I don't know how you can consider living on constantly increasing debt to ever turn into " manageable" on it's own, because that logic is alien to me.

I dont know what the European equivalent of Fox News is, but stop getting your news from there:
https://fsaraceno.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/2015_06_reforms_greece_11.png
^ Cuz what you are saying is that thing that's the opposite of true.

Probably links from this thread, though do notice I talked about all public spending vs just social spending measured in your graphs. That was actually my mistake, I really should get some sleep...
I do point out that just measuring social spending doesn't cover everything Austerity™ is supposed to effect since it excludes government employees, who in Greece have some of the best benefits, among other expences.

Spoiler: Here's what I was talking about with public spending/GDP: (click to show/hide)

[mainiac]

So what you are talking about is a completely different statistic that you misinterpreted.  Good reason to shit on greece ^.^

And with a map dated 2009!  In a discussion of what happened between 2010 and 2014.  Joy!  I am learning so much from you!

In all the news I have seen it's been very clear what Greece hasn't done; budget cuts they agreeded to do in Austerity™ Part 2 back in around 2012, which left hole size of ~1.5 billion € that they couldn't get from anywhere else in their budget, and couldn't pay before the deadline 30.6. Now that's tiny amount considering whole project had cost ~200 billion overall to the EU at that point, but it's not questionable that Syriza refused to make cuts that were requirement for furter aid to Greece while still asking for more money.

Econ 101 pop quiz!
If an countries economy shrinks by 25%, what do you think that does to it's revenues?
If a countries imposes a 40% structural increase in taxation as percentage of GDP, a 29% structural reduction in spending, or some combination equivalent to either choice, but simultaneously experiences a 18% decline in cyclical revenues due to GDP shrinkage, how much would it's nominal balance change?
Name some examples except for Greece 2010-2014 where a modern economy engaged in a 40% structural improvement in revenues per GDP over a 4 year period.

I know, I know.  You are thinking "but these questions are so simple to a hotshot like me!  I'll just whip out the middle school math and answer in thirty seconds!"  But hey... if you have ten minutes to write an angry reply then you have thirty seconds to do the basic math of the situation, right?

[Sergarr]

Funnily enough, there are people on other sites with backgrounds in economics that display a point-of-view completely opposite to that of mainiac.

EDIT: I just saw this in my news feed, and, well, wow:

https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Frg.ru%2F2015%2F07%2F14%2Fterroristi.html%3Foasa&edit-text=&act=url

Russian developers have proposed several options for such an extraordinary "pronounced" weapon. They all have three basic differences. Firstly, the shooting device hidden, not even all the members of the crew know where they are located. Most likely, the secret weapon mounted on the board will be entrusted only to the commander and flight engineer.

Second, to avoid an error in the aiming system is provided with a laser designator and a computer-controlled, the operator only includes it and gives basic commands.

And, thirdly, the fire is not fighting and traumatic bullets, to avoid damaging the skin of the aircraft and to avoid casualties among the passengers. However, there are other options - shoot ampoule with soporific substance or even replace a stun gun on.

Shooting module can be both mobile and stationary - trunks just posted throughout the cabin so as to sweep every square centimeter. It is possible that our passengers feel uncomfortable, knowing that somewhere nearby hidden the gun ready to fire. But on the other hand, such knowledge can not only prevent the attack, but also to reason with bullies air - because if the captain finds that rowdy threatens the security of passengers and aircraft, it could give the command to open fire.

I especially liked the idea of making a hidden gunpoint safer by fully computerizing its shooting functionality.

[smjjames]

A few years ago, such a design was offered the Americans, but did not dare to introduce, afraid of public opinion. Under the scheme, the shooter, that is the operator with control panel, located in the cockpit, and the firing unit - in the passenger compartment. The module is mounted on the ceiling monorail cabin and includes a block of shooting devices (you can cram a few dozen barrels) and a miniature camera.

Public Opinion is damn right.

Moreover, it must be a secret from the public.

All it takes is ONE use of it (accidential or otherwise) for it to be revealed.

[ChairmanPoo]

3.2 earthquake in Crete today. Even Cthulhu is angry with the bailout

[martinuzz]

Joseph Stiglitz, and Paul Krugman, both awarded the Nobel prize for Economy, called the new deal with Greece "insanity, with as sole purpose the complete destruction of the sovereignty of Greece".

Krugman argues that the Greek economy has been destroyed by the budget cuts imposed by Brussels, which eroded the purchasing power of the average Greek person.
He says this caused the Greek economy to get trapped in a downward spiral. In his opinion, not budget cuts, but investments would have had to be made to improve the greekish economy.

But the current agreement is complete and utter bullshit, according to him. Even those people who think the Greekish prime minister Tsipras is incompetent and want to see his government fall, and those that would rather see Greece leave the Eurozone, should really not agree with this.
With this agreement, Krugman says, the European project, "which I always supported", has been given a fatal blow.

President Draghi has failed to keep people from losing their minds, says Krugman, and Hollande failed at making the Germans come to their senses.

Krugman doubts the benevolence of Germany, and even claims there are no economic motives involved. He says that Germany is purposedly trying to destroy the Greek economy.
"Coercing a country into very rigorous and harsh budget cuts, without any debt relief, is a policy doomed to fail, no matter how much the recieving country is prepared to suffer."

Krugman believes that the EU has turned into a dead end road, with Greece's complete capitulation, which will be the start of it's undoing.

Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel prize winner and former lead economist of the World Bank also harshly critisizes the current deal. He blames the EU, and specifically Germany, for lacking solidarity. "You cannot rule a Eurozone without a minimum of solidarity. This crisis completely undermines the common vision and the European solidarity. It is a catastrophe".

[Sheb]

Yeah, even I am starting to think Belgium should leave the Euro before its too late, and Im suppsoed to be the starry-eyed Eurofederalist.

[martinuzz]

Looks like Tsipras is having great trouble selling this at home. Apparently a majority of his own government does not support the deal, and has called out to reject it, as it is a complete neglect of those people who voted no and an affront to democracy. We might see it rejected still soon.

[LordSlowpoke]

actually, forcing greece to become a federal territory through gross economical fuckery is not that bad of an idea

best of luck, troika