Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

Can we make a nice gaussian-looking curve?

A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A

Pages: 1 ... 1073 1074 [1075] 1076 1077 ... 1393

Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1780087 times)

Vilanat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16110 on: April 27, 2015, 12:26:48 am »

He was specifically speaking about refugees though.

Yet he was citing immigration statistics.
Logged

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16111 on: April 27, 2015, 02:09:20 am »


That is actually a myth. The people who manage to get as far as Europe are for a big part upper class. I don't have the numbers for the EU at hand, but in Austria (where I have work that involves refugees) 20,4% of those coming here have graduated from university. That is a lot more than the general population (14,6%). It is true that there are refugees with very poor education but on average they are actually higher skilled than the local population. There seems to be a rampant misconception that someone who can't express themselves properly (because it is not their language) is stupid or uneducated or something like that.

He never used the word immigrant and always referred to refugees.
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

Reelya

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16112 on: April 27, 2015, 07:08:09 am »

[...]
The work permit thing is a good step in the right direction, but I still don't think it'd be that effective, where would you find jobs for them, that the locals already don't want or need? Because for the most part, this is all unskilled labor coming in, so the most they can do is some sort of physical work (and not services either because I think most don't speak the language).
[...]

That is actually a myth. The people who manage to get as far as Europe are for a big part upper class. I don't have the numbers for the EU at hand, but in Austria (where I have work that involves refugees) 20,4% of those coming here have graduated from university. That is a lot more than the general population (14,6%). It is true that there are refugees with very poor education but on average they are actually higher skilled than the local population. There seems to be a rampant misconception that someone who can't express themselves properly (because it is not their language) is stupid or uneducated or something like that.

This sounds like we need more data to make that call. Maybe most refugees there are adults, and you're comparing adult graduation rates on one hand vs total-population graduation rates (which includes children and seniors) on the other.

Also, poorer countries tend to have larger disparities between rich and poor, so perhaps there's 20% of the refugees who have finished university, and most of the rest are illiterate. You can't just compare the 14% directly to the 20% and say "on average refugees have more eduction".

... also the "14%" figure seems a couple of decades out of date:
http://www.oecd.org/edu/Austria-EAG2014-Country-Note.pdf
20% of Austrians aged 25-64 have a degree, and estimates of an Austrian young person's chance of completing a degree in their lifetime are 39%, so much better than the average refugee. Also note that Austria is almost dead last in many OECD rankings of graduation rates. So, it might be more of a point that Austrians have a poor eduction system rather than refugees are objectively well-educated.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 07:18:03 am by Reelya »
Logged

lorb

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16113 on: April 27, 2015, 12:19:59 pm »

The 14% is not decades old, it is from 2013 (which is the most recent year I have the statistical yearbook available). Please note that I referred to "graduation from university". That is not the same than the OECD definition for tertiary education. 20% of the 25-64 year old population has attained whatever the OECD considers tertiary education. That does not imply that they have a degree. Most of tertiary-type B does not earn a (proper) degree in Austria and is not taught in universities. (Which is one of the reasons why Austria comes in as dead last.) The stats are pretty messy but it is true that Austria has a low rate of academics. It is also still true that refugees have on average a pretty good education with a lot of academics but also more illiterates than the Austrian population.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 12:22:56 pm by lorb »
Logged
Please be gracious in judging my english. (I am not a native speaker/writer.)
"This tile is supported by that wall."

Vilanat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16114 on: April 27, 2015, 02:27:28 pm »

He never used the word immigrant and always referred to refugees.

I am sorry if it seems like i am nitpicking, but he did try to "debunk" a myth and opened my eyes to a possibly different reality than what i personally perceive, so i went looking for hard data to support his claim and couldn't find anything that remotely resemble those figures among refugees. i found pretty similar numbers among immigrants (In austria alone) so i assumed he used those.

I did find some interesting data on the subject (Not from austria, sadly). a repeated claim is that this is a surprisingly difficult subject to tackle. even so, from what i did manage to gather, among world wide refugees, education is considered a severe problem with under 30% ever attending secondary school (Comparing to numbers well above the 90's in european countries). the common figure for university degree holders is around 8% (again, this is a most common figure, there are studies that show different stats, none remotely reaching the mentioned 20.4% though).

lets also not forget that a degree from vienna school of engineering is far more valuable than a degree from an obscure university in Syria, Iraq or Sudan.

It is also still true that refugees have on average a pretty good education with a lot of academics but also more illiterates than the Austrian population.

Citation needed. from the figures i have seen its not the case.

A few interesting facts:

A man can be born and be raised in his home, live his entire life in his own city of birth, go to his government funded university and get a degree, get married, buy his own house and still be considered a refugee. not only that, but his children and grandchildren will also be considered refugees. these kind of "refugees" make up around 30% of all the world's refugees.

Russia makes up for the second largest source of asylum seekers in the world. i am willing to bet that their situation is slightly better than syrians or libyans.

MAJOR WALL OF TEXT/RANT

Now for some facts that i found bit upsetting:

Qatar, or shall i say, filthy rich, 2022 World Cup host with GDP per capita of $145K, has been so generous as to donate the UNHCR around 27 million usd from 2000 to 2014, of which 26.5M where allocated in 2014 alone and was thankfully willing to accept around 54 asylum seekers and 127 refugees so far (I saw claims that of which around half of the asylum seekers are actually from hamas leadership, a palestinian organization who's leaders were forced to flee Syria since they sided with the rebels there.). just to put things into perspective, so far more than 950 world cup slave workers died in qatar in 2012-2013 alone.

Saudi Arabia, drowning in cash with GDP per capita of $53K and the third country in the world with most cash reserves (around 740 billions USD in cash reserves) was so generous as to donate an accumulated sum of around 170 million USD from 2000-2014, of which 92 million were donated in 2014 alone and was thankfully willing to accept no less than 99 asylum seekers and 565 refugees.

United Arab Emirates, that country which owns half of london, with a well respectful GDP per capita of $65K, donated around 60 millions USD from 2000-2014 and has so far accepted no less than 514 refugees and 117 asylum seekers.

Oman, a country bigger than the UK with 3.2 Million people, GDP per capita of $45K, is apparently so afraid it can't house more people in fear of running out of space that they have so far accepted no less than 149 refugees and 129 asylum seekers. donations from 2000 - 2014: 2.4 millions USD.

2014 had been a great year for the UNHCR from the middle east, and without 2014, the donation amounts from some of these countries are laughable. also important to note, that contrary to donations from western countries, the vast majority from the rich middle east countries donations are restricted, meaning they are for a single purpose and not freely spent. the UAE have contributed 30 millions in 2008 alone, yet only 54K of those were unrestricted. another thing to take into account is the money being spent on each country from the UNHCR. in 2015 the UAE branch will get a funding of 3 million to help its ~613 refugees, while israel will get 3.2 million to help its ~52,000 refugees (Mainly from Eritrea and Sudan).

And to get things into perspective:

Greece, or that country that has failing economy and considers dropping out of the EU, who's cash reserves are lower than Afghanistan, Guatemala and Bolivia, a GDP per capita of $25K and unemployment rate of around 25% (real rate probably much higher), has 43K asylum seekers, 3,485 refugees and had donated around 26 million from 2000-2014 (A mere million short of Qatar). the unrestricted donations from greece are possibly higher than Saudi arabia's (Didn't bother to calculate it precisely, but even if its not higher, its somewhat close).

When i see these figures i just can't help but think to my self why should the west be solely responsible for refugees and take bashing from the U.N  for "neglecting" to address the refugees from libya and syria while the richest of the rich are comfortably shutting out their far culturally closer brethren?

We sit and discuss the dangers the libyans and syrians are facing when crossing the med sea, while saudi arabia is less than 100 KM from Syria, or around an hour and a half by car? why does people from iraq have to travel weeks if not months all the way to greece, or more dangerously through libya and the med sea to italy when a bus ride from baghdad to Doha takes 12 hours or to the nearest saudi arabia's big city 7 hours? why do people from Eritrea don't cross to Saudi arabia instead of dying in the desert and the med sea?

Isn't it more logical that people from Iraq take refugee in Saudi Arabia, where the cultural differences are neglible rather than travel to europe and suffer alienation due to different language and culture? why aren't those countries taking in more refugees?! if the asylum seekers are so desperate that they risk their lives crossing deserts and the med sea, why aren't they simply crossing a shared border? maybe they know that in the med sea there's a chance to succeed, while in saudi arabia its 100% beheading?
Logged

Owlbread

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16115 on: April 27, 2015, 03:47:56 pm »

It's been pretty quiet in terms of Scottish politics lately as the election is turning into a slog of failed Unionist smear attempts of various SNP candidates (e.g. candidate of Irish descent said the word "hun" twice nearly 10 years ago on a forum) and Unionist attempts to re-run the referendum, because that's all they have left. The only thing of note I can report is that a poll was conducted recently by method of a brief interview of Edinburgh-based Grindr users, finding that 62% of the 200 or so users polled were going to vote SNP. Over 1000 were actually asked in the first place but they either rejected the questioning or didn't settle on a particular party. It's a pity, but we can't exactly blame them considering the circumstances.


That kind of result is to be expected though - the latest poll from TNS showed the SNP were on 54% of the vote, having increased their share by 2% since the last one. Labour have been saying for some time that the polls would narrow closer to the election. I believed them too - but the election is next Thursday. They're running out of time.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 04:00:16 pm by Owlbread »
Logged

Erkki

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16116 on: April 28, 2015, 04:49:33 am »

And we have another "underwater object", this time off Helsinki. First contact was at some point in Monday(almost surely by passive sensors system), after which surface vessels were directed to the area and the "object" was caught last night. Of course everyone including the Secretary of Defense have abstained from using the word submarine, but the "object" was depth charged near the sea border (between Finnish and International waters), two times 3 shots.

Warning shots of course, but thats still a submarine chase right outside of a EU capital city. Little else is known but the "object" has apparently left the national waters now.

http://yle.fi/uutiset/merivoimat_havainnut_vedenalaisen_kohteen_helsingin_edustalla/7958858

http://yle.fi/uutiset/haglund_teoriassa_mahdollista_etta_kyseessa_on_sukellusvene/7959038

http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/201504280113525_uu.shtml


edit: possibly related, Monday was also the annual "Veterans' Day" commemorating the end of the War of Lapland in 1945. This year, for the first time after the war, the President awarded many of the veterans in various ways, a gesture that would have been impossible when USSR existed, due to all kinds of reasons. His comment on that matter went something like "wasnt it about time already?".
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 04:57:16 am by Erkki »
Logged

ChairmanPoo

  • Bay Watcher
  • Send in the clowns
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16117 on: April 28, 2015, 05:23:02 am »

And we have another "underwater object", this time off Helsinki. First contact was at some point in Monday(almost surely by passive sensors system), after which surface vessels were directed to the area and the "object" was caught last night. Of course everyone including the Secretary of Defense have abstained from using the word submarine, but the "object" was depth charged near the sea border (between Finnish and International waters), two times 3 shots.

Warning shots of course, but thats still a submarine chase right outside of a EU capital city. Little else is known but the "object" has apparently left the national waters now.

http://yle.fi/uutiset/merivoimat_havainnut_vedenalaisen_kohteen_helsingin_edustalla/7958858

http://yle.fi/uutiset/haglund_teoriassa_mahdollista_etta_kyseessa_on_sukellusvene/7959038

http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/201504280113525_uu.shtml


edit: possibly related, Monday was also the annual "Veterans' Day" commemorating the end of the War of Lapland in 1945. This year, for the first time after the war, the President awarded many of the veterans in various ways, a gesture that would have been impossible when USSR existed, due to all kinds of reasons. His comment on that matter went something like "wasnt it about time already?".


Logged
Everyone sucks at everything. Until they don't. Not sucking is a product of time invested.

Caz

  • Bay Watcher
  • [PREFSTRING:comforting whirs]
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16118 on: April 28, 2015, 05:26:06 am »

Labour have been saying for some time that the polls would narrow closer to the election. I believed them too - but the election is next Thursday. They're running out of time.

sLab is gonna be decimated on the 7th, with good reason too. I even prefer Ruth Davidson to Murphy. Must be a form of sacrilege.
Logged

Owlbread

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16119 on: April 28, 2015, 06:41:34 am »

sLab is gonna be decimated on the 7th, with good reason too. I even prefer Ruth Davidson to Murphy. Must be a form of sacrilege.

Yeah, Murphy always manages to elicit strong reactions in people. If I ever see him on TV he really creeps me out - he has that horrible dead eye stare and fake soft way of speaking that makes him seem both patronising and threatening. He comes across as a violent man with a terrible temper trying (and struggling) to hide that side of himself. The fact that he can lie barefaced like he does 24/7 and change his "principles" in the blink of an eye if it suits reminds me of a manipulative sociopath or something. He also has murderer's hands - just look at his fingers.

That said I did like Frankie Boyle's description of him that he always carried the air of a harassed PE teacher, I think that's pretty accurate.

Ruth Davidson is an interesting one though. She's principled, you know what you're getting with her and has a lot of charm in a Tory sort of way and I know the media just adore her, but I think her charm is what protects her from being put under the scrutiny she deserves. For leader of the Conservatives in Scotland she hasn't been questioned or challenged nearly enough for her party's record at a UK level e.g. bedroom tax, austerity etc.
Logged

Helgoland

  • Bay Watcher
  • No man is an island.
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16120 on: April 28, 2015, 08:09:39 am »

-snip-
Why only warning shots though? It's not like sinking that boat would start a war or something.
Logged
The Bay12 postcard club
Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Zangi

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16121 on: April 28, 2015, 08:32:38 am »

-snip-
Why only warning shots though? It's not like sinking that boat would start a war or something.
I guess shoot first, ask questions later is a good policy for trespassing?
Logged
All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu...  This is the truth! This is my belief! ... At least for now...
FMA/FMA:B Recommendation

Erkki

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16122 on: April 28, 2015, 08:57:44 am »

-snip-
Why only warning shots though? It's not like sinking that boat would start a war or something.

RoE thing; lethal use of weaponry only for self-defense and all that or heads start dropping. Apparently the decision to drop warning charges was made by the captain of Uusimaa. Actual use of force should Russians be on the receiving end I believe would only worsen the political situation even if it were clearly in self defense. Because, its not like Russia would care, it would still be somehow turned into foreign aggression.

edit: I have actually once visited that ship myself, and my brother has served on her. They had everything on the bridge running on Windows 2000 machines then.  :P
edit2: also social media and comment sections of most news sites seem to have suddenly filled with putinbots and pro-russia trolls spreading their stuff in bad Finnish. Surprising.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 09:10:48 am by Erkki »
Logged

Sergarr

  • Bay Watcher
  • (9) airheaded baka (9)
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16123 on: April 28, 2015, 09:16:20 am »

-snip-
Why only warning shots though? It's not like sinking that boat would start a war or something.
Because the "unidentified objects" would start to shoot back.
Logged
._.

Erkki

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16124 on: April 28, 2015, 09:18:53 am »

-snip-
Why only warning shots though? It's not like sinking that boat would start a war or something.
Because the "unidentified objects" would start to shoot back.

However, against a very nearby/right on top surface vessel or a helicopter, a submarine is basically helpless. And its not like a caught one is exactly going anywhere, especially in the shallow Baltic.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 1073 1074 [1075] 1076 1077 ... 1393