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[Helgoland]

And why assume assimilation is needed? Not keeping the refugees in camps for over four decades would help already.

...what exactly do you do with refugees, then? can't just let them wander whenever they'll want, the majority will just start forming slums and no side of the equation would like to be involved in that

it's either help them join society at large, keep them separated and pretend they don't exist unless there's a fourth way of doing things

arab states seem to be decent at combining 2&3 as illustrated by the palestinian issue we're talking about, but it's not like the syrians running away from their own circumstances are treated any better

Did you know that the UN has two separate organizations for helping refugees? One for the Palestinians, and one for all the others. There's also two definitions of who counts as a refugee: One for the Palestinians, one for all the others. And, of course, the two different organizations have two different standard operating procedures: One for the Palestinians, one for all the others.
Normal refugees are usually helped with getting on with their life; aid agencies do not try to cement their status as refugees. But the Palestinians have been instrumentalized to hell and back: There's been a purposeful effort of keeping them as refugees for an indefinite time. The descendants of refugees don't count as refugees, for example - unless they're Palestinian. Then you can be a refugee from a place you've never set foot in.

Which borders would a Palestinian state get, anyway? Isn't there a sort of land-swap thing?

i were wondering if you'd go full "but they built the ghetto they live in themselves!" but apparently that was a misjudgment of your character, for which i apologize for

And that's why I try to stay out of these discussions, especially here, but up until now it doesn't seem so bad.

[BlindKitty]

The current situation isn't a war between equals though, it's an occupation with classic genocide tactics. So to characterize it as two equal sides who won't stop fighting is just wrong. Stop invading them is the first step.

Yeah, the only problem with your thinking is that the genocide tactics is used by the Palestinians, not the Israeli. Actually, I'm pretty amazed that Israel is showing so much restraint over every freaking rocket attack on it's territory...

[smjjames]

What even is the point of keeping the palestinian refugees status as refugees? Even a generation or two later? I don't really get it.

I suppose all of those 'refugees' will come flooding back into palestine once there is a state again? Is there some sort of purpose or plan behind the whole thing? I'm not trying to evoke conspiracy theories or be a conspiracy theorist, I'm just wondering what is the point behind all of that.

Makes as much sense as keeping the refugee status of the jews who fled Europe in WWII.

[Helgoland]

Well, Israel is unpopular in the Middle East (duuh), so being against Israel is a smart move for every despot in the region who doesn't want to end up drawn and quartered. And keeping the refugees a) refugees and b) miserable gives you a large amont of people willing to fight against Israel all on their own.
Of course there's also the despots who are against Israel regardless of popular opinion. But the reasoning's similar.

[smjjames]

Okay, but at SOME POINT, they're going to have to no longer be refugees, whether it's when Palestine gets statehood or they just say 'fuck this, I'm going to get settled down here'.

[Reelya]

The current situation isn't a war between equals though, it's an occupation with classic genocide tactics. So to characterize it as two equal sides who won't stop fighting is just wrong. Stop invading them is the first step.

Yeah, the only problem with your thinking is that the genocide tactics is used by the Palestinians, not the Israeli. Actually, I'm pretty amazed that Israel is showing so much restraint over every freaking rocket attack on it's territory...

28 Israeli rocket deaths in 15 years, vs 2060 Palestinian children killed by the Israeli Defence force in the same time period ( 9,121 total Palestinians have been killed by the IDF in that time). Plus, you know, Israel being the invaders etc. It's the same reason we don't talk about American Indians "genociding" Europeans, even though there were definitely some Europeans killed by American Indians.

As many palestinians are killed by Israeli soldiers every 2 weeks on average as the total 14 years worth of rocket fatalities. And you have the nerve to call 28 deaths genocide?

Yes, what Palestine is doing can be classed as "occasionally punching back" if their rockets take 15 years to do the same damage as Israel does them every 2 weeks.

[Owlbread]

There's a lot of Israeli chat in this Euro thread. I know Israel is in the Eurovision Song Contest but all the same West Asian politics shouldn't really come under the European heading.

[Helgoland]

Okay, but at SOME POINT, they're going to have to no longer be refugees, whether it's when Palestine gets statehood or they just say 'fuck this, I'm going to get settled down here'.

Well, that last part is precisely what they can't do! Well, unless they're in Jordania, but that's  a special case.

The current situation isn't a war between equals though, it's an occupation with classic genocide tactics. So to characterize it as two equal sides who won't stop fighting is just wrong. Stop invading them is the first step.

Yeah, the only problem with your thinking is that the genocide tactics is used by the Palestinians, not the Israeli. Actually, I'm pretty amazed that Israel is showing so much restraint over every freaking rocket attack on it's territory...

28 Israeli rocket deaths in 15 years, vs 2060 Palestinian children killed by the Israeli Defence force in the same time period ( 9,121 total Palestinians have been killed by the IDF in that time). Plus, you know, Israel being the invaders etc. It's the same reason we don't talk about American Indians "genociding" Europeans, even though there were definitely some Europeans killed by American Indians.

As many palestinians are killed every 2 weeks on average as the total 15 years worth of rocket fatalities. And you have the nerve to call 28 deaths genocide?

How is what Israel's doing a genocide? If they wanted a genocide, the Palestinians would've been long gone.

[FritzPL]

I mean, it's not like they don't know how to round up a few million people representing one cultural/religious group and then dispose of them...

[LordSlowpoke]

How is what Israel's doing a genocide? If they wanted a genocide, the Palestinians would've been long gone.

and so would any hope of the israelis to maintain the no-longer-apartheid theocracy they've built up for themselves

it'd be tenfold the pressure south africa had on its back

re: land, i'm personally in favor of returning to 1967 borders (as per un resolutions and all) but this is still a very disputed thing

also the refugees situation is something you've reminded me of so there you are

[Reelya]

By the terms of the UN's definition of genocide, they definitely are attempting genocide. You can read the legal definition here, and the article lists some means they use to go about it:
http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/committing-genocide-palestinians.html

The Israeli military deliberately knocked out the Gaza Strip’s only electricity plant, making it impossible for water purification plants to operate and so depriving most Palestinians of potable water. Infants and toddlers are at special risk of mortality from dirty water. The conditions of life imposed on the people of Gaza are indisputably causing serious mental and bodily harm.

The European Union has linked the suspension of Israel/Europe trade agreement talks to human rights issues, especially in regards to children.

in the present Gaza campaign alone one in a thousand residents of Gaza has been killed by the Israeli military (the equivalent of killing 310,000 Americans).

If someone attacked and occupied the USA, knocked out all the water treatment plants, prevented people from moving freely, and directly killed 300,000 people in a short time period, would you call that an attempt at genocide? I think so.

[Vilanat]

The current situation isn't a war between equals though, it's an occupation with classic genocide tactics. So to characterize it as two equal sides who won't stop fighting is just wrong. Stop invading them is the first step.

It's like someone is in your face and keeps punching you and you occasionally hit back, and people saying "separating them won't do anything to stop the fighting - look that little guy who keeps getting punched a lot will just hit back".

How about all the arab nations that were previously fighting Israel, but aren't now? Basically every one of their neighbors. The only difference culturally is that the they don't live under an occupier's thumb and the Palestinians do. And Fatah / Hamas - those types of organizations only exist because of an occupation. You don't get such groups rising to power in other circumstances.

It's really colonialist logic to go "those natives who want the invaders out are just naturally belligerent types, we can't leave them alone because they'll kill each other". It's the presense of invaders that causes such groups to arise. To then use those groups existence as a justfitication to keep the evil oppressors in power is just. plain. wrong.

Lebanon is the classic example, invaded by Israel, under occupation for a long time, militant sects formed in response to the invasion, but Israel eventually was forced to pull out. Do we see Lebanese constantly trying to attack Israel now? No.

Where is the genocide of palestines if their growth number is continuously one of the largest in the world from 1948-present day? they are one of the fastest growing population of the world, yet were under genocide? now under a genocide?

Where is the genocide of the palestines if their death rate is lower than in israel and in fact, one of the lowest on earth?

Where is the apartheid? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcEL-NlxBk0

Sorry but these claims does not compute. When your opinion collide with hard facts, its time to question your believes.

[Dutchling]

in the present Gaza campaign alone one in a thousand residents of Gaza has been killed by the Israeli military (the equivalent of killing 310,000 Americans).

If someone attacked and occupied the USA, knocked out all the water treatment plants, prevented people from moving freely, and directly killed 300,000 people in a short time period, would you call that an attempt at genocide? I think so.

If someone almost kills a person in Vatican City (in a short time period!), would you call that an attempt at genocide?

[Reelya]

That doesn't make a lot of sense as a comparison. A better example would be if someone invaded Italy, herded all the italians into The Vatican, cut off the water supply and surrounded it with barbed wire and tanks. That's a clear attempt to replace one population with another.

At one point most of the food in Gaza was smuggled in, and the Israelis were trying to stamp that out, while also blocking humanitarian aid. What does that sound like when the powers that be don't want 1.5 million people to have food or medicine?

The Israelis have basically engineered a situation where over several decades they herded an entire country's worth of people into two very small areas of land, and since then they've taken strong means to erode the infrastructure of those small patches of land, whilst encroaching as much as possible on Palestinian land with ethnic colonists. Gaza and the West Bank are basically reserves for the natives. If they didn't have the world looking at them it's most likely those people wouldn't be around now, they would have long since just grabbed ALL the land and not left that token bit. But everyone knows that you can't just openly mass slaughter civilians these days without horrifying the world.

It's like this because Israel has an especially strong sense of ethnic purity, and if you're not of the same sect as them, you're basically not welcome, except as a tourist. It's because they don't want to share with anyone else that it's like this now: other colonial states at least came to recognize the natives as citizens, whereas Israel will NEVER accept that the people they pushed out as citizens.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Israel, again?

How soon will EU-people will talk about Ukraine using same words? I expect something like "Cruel Ukraine genocide Donbasian* nation"

*As good as calling Arabs Palestinians