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[Sergarr]

Well I was thinking to flame a little, but after reading that, I think I should go and do something productive instead.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Russia is bad, but modern Russia is still orders of magnitude better than the USSR. For starters, while the USSR was in the grip of a ideology in whose name millions were killed or deported, modern Russia simply don't care as long as those at the top makes money and keep the power.

Yeah, Exactly what I mean. The West sees Russia as a corrupt autocratic  country without any inhumane ideology. I think that it is plain wrong. But there are no point to argue

[Sheb]

And what would be that ideology?

[Helgoland]

Well, I'm sure everyone West of Moscow would love it if Putin was overthrown and replaced by someone less invady, but to say that it's the goal of the sanctions is stupid. You don't overthrow a government by banning a dozen officials from travelling abroad.

I think the idea chain which leads from sanctions to regime change is: sanctions crash the Russian economy, then Hodorkovsky and other opposition forces organize a Maidan in Moscow and overthrow the government.

Actually most intelligent people in the West are afraid of Putin being removed right now - because whoever comes after him won't be better, that's for sure. Claiming the West wants a regime change is pure propaganda.

[Sergarr]

Well, I'm sure everyone West of Moscow would love it if Putin was overthrown and replaced by someone less invady, but to say that it's the goal of the sanctions is stupid. You don't overthrow a government by banning a dozen officials from travelling abroad.

I think the idea chain which leads from sanctions to regime change is: sanctions crash the Russian economy, then Hodorkovsky and other opposition forces organize a Maidan in Moscow and overthrow the government.

Actually most intelligent people in the West are afraid of Putin being removed right now - because whoever comes after him won't be better, that's for sure. Claiming the West wants a regime change is pure propaganda.

What if it was Hodorkovsky? He said recently that he wouldn't refuse to be the President of Russia.

[Guardian G.I.]

Well, I'm sure everyone West of Moscow would love it if Putin was overthrown and replaced by someone less invady, but to say that it's the goal of the sanctions is stupid. You don't overthrow a government by banning a dozen officials from travelling abroad.

I think the idea chain which leads from sanctions to regime change is: sanctions crash the Russian economy, then Hodorkovsky and other opposition forces organize a Maidan in Moscow and overthrow the government.

Actually most intelligent people in the West are afraid of Putin being removed right now - because whoever comes after him won't be better, that's for sure. Claiming the West wants a regime change is pure propaganda.

The West wants a regime change in Russia, however it wants to put someone loyal to them in charge, someone like Yeltsin. As Sergarr said, Khodorkovsky is a potential candidate for that role.

[Sheb]

Well, someone who do not invade its neighbors would be nice enough.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

And what would be that ideology?

It has no defined name.

Something like:  Revanchist imperialism + extreme collectivism  + xenophobia

Actually most intelligent people in the West are afraid of Putin being removed right now - because whoever comes after him won't be better, that's for sure. Claiming the West wants a regime change is pure propaganda.

I think that it is 100% true. Furthermore I have little to no doubts that next ruler of Russia will be even more radical and cruel than Putin, because that is what Russians want. That or a civil war were minority of Russians will win in a war against majority.

[Frumple]

... I'm pretty sure the west's general population, at the least, wouldn't care who was in charge so long as they stop invading other countries. That's all that's actually wanted, y'know? I guess they'd be supportive of a regime change to someone more sympathetic to western countries if that's what it took, but I'm pretty sure just about anyone would be fine so long as they'd knock the latest round of belligerent monkeying about off.

And yes, something something the other countries do it to and we'd also really bloody like them to stop, too.

[Guardian G.I.]

Well, someone who do not invade its neighbors would be nice enough.

Even that person would surely try to undermine American hegemony. That's why the West needs Yeltsin №2 - someone who'll be loyal, who'll give up all Russia's interests and who'll lead it towards certain doom.

[Sergarr]

... I'm pretty sure the west's general population, at the least, wouldn't care who was in charge so long as they stop invading other countries. That's all that's actually wanted, y'know? I guess they'd be supportive of a regime change to someone more sympathetic to western countries if that's what it took, but I'm pretty sure just about anyone would be fine so long as they'd knock the latest round of belligerent monkeying about off.

And yes, something something the other countries do it to and we'd also really bloody like them to stop, too.

What about alliances invading other countries? Because NATO, Libya, you know the stuff.

[Sheb]

The West doesn't need anything, we can do just fine without Russia. Sure, it would be nice for us to have a leader that cooperate with us, but in that sense, every country wants a regime change in every other country.

Sergarr: Yup, you got us. We totally turned Tripoli into a suburbs of Washington.

[Helgoland]

Once again: Russia voted for the Libya resolution, so that's a bad example.

Well, I'm sure everyone West of Moscow would love it if Putin was overthrown and replaced by someone less invady, but to say that it's the goal of the sanctions is stupid. You don't overthrow a government by banning a dozen officials from travelling abroad.

I think the idea chain which leads from sanctions to regime change is: sanctions crash the Russian economy, then Hodorkovsky and other opposition forces organize a Maidan in Moscow and overthrow the government.

Actually most intelligent people in the West are afraid of Putin being removed right now - because whoever comes after him won't be better, that's for sure. Claiming the West wants a regime change is pure propaganda.

What if it was Hodorkovsky? He said recently that he wouldn't refuse to be the President of Russia.

Is the West responsible for every dumb thing every Russian emigrant says? Khodorkovsky talking shit doesn't mean anything.
And GI, you're ignoring the rather good image Putin had before this current crisis. We liked him, you know?

[Sheb]

Germans might, I didn't. :p

[Sergarr]

Once again: Russia voted for the Libya resolution, so that's a bad example.

Well, I'm sure everyone West of Moscow would love it if Putin was overthrown and replaced by someone less invady, but to say that it's the goal of the sanctions is stupid. You don't overthrow a government by banning a dozen officials from travelling abroad.

I think the idea chain which leads from sanctions to regime change is: sanctions crash the Russian economy, then Hodorkovsky and other opposition forces organize a Maidan in Moscow and overthrow the government.

Actually most intelligent people in the West are afraid of Putin being removed right now - because whoever comes after him won't be better, that's for sure. Claiming the West wants a regime change is pure propaganda.

What if it was Hodorkovsky? He said recently that he wouldn't refuse to be the President of Russia.

Is the West responsible for every dumb thing every Russian emigrant says? Khodorkovsky talking shit doesn't mean anything.
And GI, you're ignoring the rather good image Putin had before this current crisis. We liked him, you know?

I don't know about a single non-fringe English-speaker liking Putin.