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[Owlbread]

Nicola Sturgeon has reshuffled the cabinet, creating the first 50/50 gender balanced cabinet in British history. The United Nations have commended Scotland for this apparently.

[Helgoland]

The US supplied military equipment to Kiev, and apparently Lavrov accused the West of trying to instigate a regime change in Russia via the sanctions. Link in German.

[Sergarr]

Our government has finally realized what other people have been saying since the February. Hallelujah!

[smjjames]

Our government has finally realized what other people have been saying since the February. Hallelujah!

Which would be what exactly?

Attempting to overthrow Putin isn't the goal and nobody has said anything to that affect, to my knowledge. Obama hasn't anyway.

There probably are some people who would like Putin to just resign, but some people =/= the entire west.

Oh, Ukrainian thread is closed. Good, I have a legitimate reason to ignore it.

We have Holodomor Remembrance Day in Ukraine today. Good reminder of what will happen again should we, Ukrainians, lose war to Russia

Didn't Russia (and some other soviet sattelites) go through that famine period as well? From what I've heard anyway. Though I hadn't heard of the word 'holodomor' until fairly recently (actually several months ago when some people thought it was funny to do holodomor ukraine in polandball comic), so, other than a period of famine, I'm pretty ignorant as to what happened then.

[Sheb]

Well, I'm sure everyone West of Moscow would love it if Putin was overthrown and replaced by someone less invady, but to say that it's the goal of the sanctions is stupid. You don't overthrow a government by banning a dozen officials from travelling abroad.

[mainiac]

Didn't Russia (and some other soviet sattelites) go through that famine period as well?

The famine didn't hit all parts of the Soviet Union the same.  Some soviets were more equal then others.

[Guardian G.I.]

Didn't Russia (and some other soviet sattelites) go through that famine period as well? From what I've heard anyway. Though I hadn't heard of the word 'holodomor' until fairly recently (actually several months ago when some people thought it was funny to do holodomor ukraine in polandball comic), so, other than a period of famine, I'm pretty ignorant as to what happened then.

Spoiler: Territories hit by the famine of 1932-33 (click to show/hide)

source

[Sheb]

Well, the death tolls estimates varies a lot: about 6 to 8 millions, with 2-5 millions Ukrainians. Whether the famine targeted Ukrainians as an ethnic group or not is still open to debate. But it's not like Russia would do such a thing again, that's UR being hyperbolic again.

[Sergarr]

Well, I'm sure everyone West of Moscow would love it if Putin was overthrown and replaced by someone less invady, but to say that it's the goal of the sanctions is stupid. You don't overthrow a government by banning a dozen officials from travelling abroad.

I think the idea chain which leads from sanctions to regime change is: sanctions crash the Russian economy, then Hodorkovsky and other opposition forces organize a Maidan in Moscow and overthrow the government.

[scrdest]

Well, I'm sure everyone West of Moscow would love it if Putin was overthrown and replaced by someone less invady, but to say that it's the goal of the sanctions is stupid. You don't overthrow a government by banning a dozen officials from travelling abroad.

I think the idea chain which leads from sanctions to regime change is: sanctions crash the Russian economy, then Hodorkovsky and other opposition forces organize a Maidan in Moscow and overthrow the government.

Of course, that's one endgame. But by far not the only endgame. Especially since 'the devil you know' factor is at play.

[Arx]

Every time I read someone referring to 'the devil you know', it makes me think of a nobleman condescendingly putting someone down - 'The devil do you know?'

This has been an interlude brought to you by Arx Inc. We now return you to your regularly scheduled caeful edging around firey pits.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Didn't Russia (and some other soviet sattelites) go through that famine period as well? From what I've heard anyway. Though I hadn't heard of the word 'holodomor' until fairly recently (actually several months ago when some people thought it was funny to do holodomor ukraine in polandball comic), so, other than a period of famine, I'm pretty ignorant as to what happened then.

Spoiler: Territories hit by the famine of 1932-33 (click to show/hide)

source

Yep, copies ethnic map of Ukrainians... Areas were Ukrainian lived before 1933. Kuban was hit hard because goal of clearing Russia from Ukrainians was more important than clearing Ukraine from Ukrainians.  Of cause Russians are  not Germans. They never cared about own people, so if village had 50% Ukrainians, 50% Russians that changed nothing.

Note how Crimea. That was more or less a desert back then, avoided famine.  Think why

Well, the death tolls estimates varies a lot: about 6 to 8 millions, with 2-5 millions Ukrainians. Whether the famine targeted Ukrainians as an ethnic group or not is still open to debate. But it's not like Russia would do such a thing again, that's UR being hyperbolic again.

Not at all. If Ukraine would be at war with Germany I would be sure that I will be not sent to concentration camp like my grandfather. Because in Modern Germany Hitler, Nazi Party and ideology are recognized as criminal. And they do not tell me that Sachsenhausen never existed or "It was just a labor camp"  "Hey, Germans were there, too!"

In Russia Stalin and Communist party are ranging from "not that bad" to role models. Russians tell me that Holodomor never happened, that was a natural famine and "More Russians than Ukrainians died because of that famine"

In fact, it makes me depressed that you, Sheb (together with millions of other "Westerners ") Fail to understand what modern Russia is. Humanity will pay a huge price because of that.

[Sheb]

Russia is bad, but modern Russia is still orders of magnitude better than the USSR. For starters, while the USSR was in the grip of a ideology in whose name millions were killed or deported, modern Russia simply don't care as long as those at the top makes money and keep the power.

[smjjames]

MAAAAAYBE we should change topic? Don't want this to de-evolve into flaming....

[Sheb]

I'll lock the thread if it gets to flamey.