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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1776856 times)

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9795 on: August 28, 2014, 09:31:54 am »

Point me to where I've said that we didn't invade, because I remember clearly saying that we did invade.

Mict, you are fighting against a strawman.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9796 on: August 28, 2014, 09:32:06 am »

No. Just Sergarr seems especially hellbent on distracting from developments in the Ukraine.

Still waiting to hear why Russian soldiers are dying in the Ukraine if the Kremlin hasn't invaded.
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Reelya

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9797 on: August 28, 2014, 09:34:50 am »

labeling those who disagree as "astroturf" is just flamebait. don't label others, focus on the argument.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 09:41:39 am by Reelya »
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Graknorke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9798 on: August 28, 2014, 09:35:50 am »

Still waiting to hear why Russian soldiers are dying in the Ukraine if the Kremlin hasn't invaded.
Also Ukrainian bullets are causing this obviously, but if we never admit that then it's like nothing is happening! :D
here i'll quote it for you
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9799 on: August 28, 2014, 09:55:52 am »

i think i broke mict
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Reelya

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9800 on: August 28, 2014, 10:01:49 am »

It's kind of ironic to single out Russia and China as the big "astroturfers" since the USA invented the practice and are the world-leaders in setting up fake "concern" groups to feed "news" into the media without letting on who's funding it. Corporations are the biggest culprits, followed by political parties in countries where they have elections.

Totalitarian states however, have basically never bothered with this practice, because they have control over the state media, which prints whatever they want as the official line, and people know better than to question it. Astroturf was created by nations which HAVE freedom of the press, to camouflage official opinion and corporate agendas as "news" fact and popular opinion.

This is the article linked by wikipedia with evidence of Chinese astroturfing:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1111.4297v1.pdf

The Chinese astro-turfers who are paid to post, all seem to be paid by private companies, i.e. it's an offshoot of increased capitalism in China, not the communist / totalitarian system.

Note, however that a country with lacks official state media - the USA has been caught doing astroturfing at the government level. Historically, the CIA has planted stories in the media, promoting official opinion, and the US Army has actually developed specialized software for automatically spreading fake social-media posts with a pro-American agenda. This level of sneaky thinking only appears in "free press" countries.

The only sources I can see claiming Russian astroturfing, are ones claiming the anti-fracking environmental groups are really fake Russia front groups. This sounds really dubious, as it's basically oil companies (who are known to astroturf themselves) accusing protesters of being commie spies.

Which group was singled out as a Russian astroturf? Oh, only Greenpeace
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 10:39:19 am by Reelya »
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9801 on: August 28, 2014, 11:07:51 am »

Russian astroturfing is a pretty solid fact - less in the American web, but the German newspapers' comments sections are being flooded wihth (seriously dumb) Russian propaganda right now.
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timferius

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9802 on: August 28, 2014, 11:17:43 am »

So. I came here to see what people are saying, since i just noticed that apparently Russia drove a tonne of tanks over the border post while subsequently blowing it up, and you guys are talking about artificial grass? I'm confused.
Anyways, I find it weird that it's "Russia is driving a bunch of tanks and troops in to the Ukraine, oh boy we're gonna sanction them good". World politics are weird.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9803 on: August 28, 2014, 11:25:24 am »

What sanctions? Something like disallowing few Russian generals to have holidays in Europe? :)

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Reelya

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9804 on: August 28, 2014, 11:31:31 am »

The big nations never directly fight with each other, pretty much any time since WWII ended. All you get are "proxy" battles or wars of words.

Basically, the rule of thumb is that powerful nations never directly attack anyone with even the remote possibility of shooting back. it doesn't matter how right or wrong they are, no large nation is ever going to take on one of the other large nations in a fight.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 11:33:27 am by Reelya »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9805 on: August 28, 2014, 11:32:34 am »

Because economy

Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9806 on: August 28, 2014, 11:36:47 am »

Well, on my travels I discovered this video from a Scottish comedian and arts journalist called Vonny Moyes who happens to also be a mother-of-four. It's a response to the misogynist and patronising Unionist official campaign video "The Woman Who Made Up Her Mind" who pigeon holed undecided female voters as some kind of bizarre, anachronistic housewife/"busy mum" archetype. Vonny's main point is that she is more than just a mother, something Better Together apparently don't understand.

Spoiler: Here's the transcript: (click to show/hide)
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9807 on: August 28, 2014, 12:20:23 pm »

How do you think what is Putin's goal right now? I don't think that the plan is to occupy all Ukraine. Russia simply has no realistic way to do that without collapsing its own economy with serious mobilization.

I think there are two likely goals:
a) Novorossiya again. Hacking a land route to Crimea and Moldova.
b) Taking Mariupol. Large port and center of Ukrainian steelworks. Then go for freezing conflict and turning currently controlled territory into new Abkhazia
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9808 on: August 28, 2014, 12:25:52 pm »

I don't think there will ever be a union between Crimea and Novorossiya in Putin's plans. The goal should be to make the Novorossiya problem so large that everyone forgets Russia has been illegally occupying Ukrainian territory in Crimea for 6 months. The challenge will be for Ukraine to hold strong and refuse to recognise the Russian occupation of Crimea, despite pressure from the UK and the USA when accepting the Crimean situation will probably be one of Russia's utterly non-negotiable requested concessions during any peace negotiation over the Donbass. "We'll convince the rebels to stand down if you recognise Crimea as a part of the Russian Federation" etc. I think the US and the UK and the EU would be totally fine with a concession over Crimea. That's been the real goal this entire time - Russia starting and fuelling the whole Novorossiya bollocks is just a gun to hold to Ukraine's head to force them to accept and submit to Russian domination.

It's not without precedent either. South Ossetia voted to leave Georgia in a referendum in 2008, was illegally occupied by Russia and made a de-facto independent state unrecognised by the world and by Georgia and that's the way it's been ever since. Crimea will likely be an international grey area with dotted border lines for years to come like Transnistria or any other Russian puppet state. This is, of course, if Ukraine holds strong and refuses to submit.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 12:31:22 pm by Owlbread »
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9809 on: August 28, 2014, 12:35:09 pm »

What about the plan "conquer the sea border up to Odessa"? You can make this problem so large that then everybody forgets about Novorossiya.
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