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[Mictlantecuhtli]

The implication that Ukraine is not allowed to turn away and or attack this convoy is wrong. If it were a humanitarian mission RC would be undertaking it, not the Russian military disguised with white paint and RC flags to be a half-humanitarian mission while mostly just dumping off equipment to their special forces.

Find me a situation where this would be excusable for any other nation. If Ukraine does not fight this incursion it will have lost entirely its legitimacy.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Under what circumstances can you stop and or attack an unmarked military convoy entering your country from a hostile nation? If we condemn Ukraine for this, we condemn any nation for attempting the same. That's not how the world works. you don't get to disguise your military trucks as RC, then blame Ukraine for being very skeptical of the reasons as to why a disguised military convoy suddenly wants to enter a rebel-held area.

You are assuming the wrong things. That the trucks are filled with military equipment & hostile actors, that  there is no coordination with aid organizations or the Ukrainian government, that it is an act of war.
You are ignoring practical realities- that Ukrainian citizens need aid, that there would be an enormous backlash for an indiscriminant, shoot-first-ask-later slaying of a humanitarian convoy, that Ukraine can afford to be zealous with their violence.
Even if it is their right to gun them down, that right is expected to be used with prudence. Not with cynical pre-emptive cruelty.

What are the best & worst case scenarios?
Assuming the convoy runs the border,
Say Ukraine bombs the shit out of the convoy.
They'll either A. Expose a russian war-crime invasion, the ends luckily justifying the means.
Or B. They'll slaughter an unarmed humanitarian convoy who trespassed in their territory. International condemnation, Russia gets a fire lit under their invasion engines.

Say they don't bomb the shit out of the convoy.
A. The rebels get resuplied, get enough steam to resist for many more months. Civilians get aid, Russia gets brownie points with civilians, Ukraine looks like a bitch, but Russia gets further international condemnation for continued violation of Ukraine's sovereignty & possibly called out for perfidious use of ICRC emblems.
B. Civilians get aid, Russia gets brownie points with civilians, Ukraine looks like a bitch, Russia gets condemnattion for continued violation of Ukraine's sovereignty.

Now which of those looks more appealing for Russia? Compare the results from A: War-crime resupplying convoy or B. Humanitarian aid.

Not only should Ukraine assume it's a humanitarian convoy because it's not the cruel thing to do, it is also more prudent ccncerning both the possible consequences of their actions and the likeliest reality, (it really is filled with aid).


Again, gunning down the first truck in an effort to block the convoy is the last-ditch-effort because even then the benefits barely outweigh the costs in the information/pr war.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Then the red cross would be sending the convoy. It wouldn't be Russian military with trucks painted white this week.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

The simple fact that you don't know what's in this 'humanitarian' convoy is what makes it a hostile act. I know a little nation in the middle east that would've crated this entire convoy into oblivion without a second question after the sender refused to disclose the list of supplies included.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

And maybe Russia wants Ukraine to over-react.

From a pragmatic standpoint, repainting the vehicles gets the supplies together faster & more reliably. Repainting them offers some protection and in exchange commits them to liability for war-crimes as an assurance. If I wanted to get relief somewhere fast, I'd support doing just that- and this pragmatism is what Russia is standing on.
Supposedly Russia's agreed to ICRC oversight. We have yet to see real proof, but this ambiguity is in Russia's interest.

We shouldn't judge morality & prudence with Israel as the gold standard. Completely different situations. Ukraine cannot get away with the shit Israel does.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

That reminds me all that hysteria around "peace flotilla" that was heading to Gaza and stopped by Israel. That is how self-respecting country acts. End of story

If Ukraine doesn't allow something to enter a war-zone, then Ukraine has full right to bomb anything that ignores the warning. Even if that trucks will be full of pregnant woman - It will be Russian fault for anyone but Russians and bunch of pacifist Europeans that always bitch when whatever country acts in self-defense

[Loud Whispers]

It's not illegal to attack an unmarked RC disguised military convoy if it enters your territory without permission.

It has nothing to do with reputation. It's called sovereign rights.

-Ukraine attacks all the trucks
-The trucks were empty
-Putin invades
-Just as keikaku

[Ukrainian Ranger]

If Putin wants to invade he will invade, if not he will not invade.
That is that simple. Casus beli like that changes nothing.

What difference between invading now and after convoy is bombed?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

What do we do when a nation shoots down a plane that enters its airspace without clearance?

[mainiac]

If I wanted to get relief somewhere fast, I'd support doing just that- and this pragmatism is what Russia is standing on.

That is utter crap.  If Russia wanted to speed this through they would work with the Red Cross and the supplies would already be delivered.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Russia confirmed for pragmatic by disguising military convoys as Red Cross. USA take notice next time we invade someone to just paint the vehicles white and Europe will support it.

[Sergarr]

What do we do when a nation shoots down a plane that enters its airspace without clearance?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents

Apparently lots of things, ranging from universal condemnation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007) to admitting an incident almost 50 years after it happened (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_1611). (side-note: I thought France was better than that...)

EDIT: Also I like how everybody just assumes that convoy is filled with military stuff, and wants to destroy it. Providing the extremely convenient casus belli. Seriously, are you working for Putin or are you just that oblivious?

[Sergarr]

I think Mict wants war.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

If I wanted to get relief somewhere fast, I'd support doing just that- and this pragmatism is what Russia is standing on.

That is utter crap.  If Russia wanted to speed this through they would work with the Red Cross and the supplies would already be delivered.

No, they wouldnt. There's a reason the national guard gets mobilized for domestic emergencies. The logistics they can bring to bear are enormous. The red cross, while a big organization, can't compete with a nation's armed forces in this regard.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Lots of people have said it's better to SEARCH THEM, not that they should be given free reign.

Again, how you gonna search them if they enter through the border that has no Ukrainian border controls?