Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

Can we make a nice gaussian-looking curve?

A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A

Pages: 1 ... 605 606 [607] 608 609 ... 1393

Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1771654 times)

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9090 on: August 13, 2014, 01:58:24 pm »

The implication that Ukraine is not allowed to turn away and or attack this convoy is wrong. If it were a humanitarian mission RC would be undertaking it, not the Russian military disguised with white paint and RC flags to be a half-humanitarian mission while mostly just dumping off equipment to their special forces.

Find me a situation where this would be excusable for any other nation. If Ukraine does not fight this incursion it will have lost entirely its legitimacy.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 02:00:30 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

GrizzlyAdamz

  • Bay Watcher
  • Herp de derp
    • View Profile
    • Check this shit out
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9091 on: August 13, 2014, 02:09:09 pm »

Under what circumstances can you stop and or attack an unmarked military convoy entering your country from a hostile nation? If we condemn Ukraine for this, we condemn any nation for attempting the same. That's not how the world works. you don't get to disguise your military trucks as RC, then blame Ukraine for being very skeptical of the reasons as to why a disguised military convoy suddenly wants to enter a rebel-held area.

You are assuming the wrong things. That the trucks are filled with military equipment & hostile actors, that  there is no coordination with aid organizations or the Ukrainian government, that it is an act of war.
You are ignoring practical realities- that Ukrainian citizens need aid, that there would be an enormous backlash for an indiscriminant, shoot-first-ask-later slaying of a humanitarian convoy, that Ukraine can afford to be zealous with their violence.
Even if it is their right to gun them down, that right is expected to be used with prudence. Not with cynical pre-emptive cruelty.

What are the best & worst case scenarios?
Assuming the convoy runs the border,
Say Ukraine bombs the shit out of the convoy.
They'll either A. Expose a russian war-crime invasion, the ends luckily justifying the means.
Or B. They'll slaughter an unarmed humanitarian convoy who trespassed in their territory. International condemnation, Russia gets a fire lit under their invasion engines.

Say they don't bomb the shit out of the convoy.
A. The rebels get resuplied, get enough steam to resist for many more months. Civilians get aid, Russia gets brownie points with civilians, Ukraine looks like a bitch, but Russia gets further international condemnation for continued violation of Ukraine's sovereignty & possibly called out for perfidious use of ICRC emblems.
B. Civilians get aid, Russia gets brownie points with civilians, Ukraine looks like a bitch, Russia gets condemnattion for continued violation of Ukraine's sovereignty.

Now which of those looks more appealing for Russia? Compare the results from A: War-crime resupplying convoy or B. Humanitarian aid.

Not only should Ukraine assume it's a humanitarian convoy because it's not the cruel thing to do, it is also more prudent ccncerning both the possible consequences of their actions and the likeliest reality, (it really is filled with aid).


Again, gunning down the first truck in an effort to block the convoy is the last-ditch-effort because even then the benefits barely outweigh the costs in the information/pr war.
Logged
Badges of honor
GENERATION 11: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
Check this shit out- (it changes)
Profile->Modify Profile->Look and Layout->Current Theme: Default [Change]->Darkling (it's good for your eyes and looks better)

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9092 on: August 13, 2014, 02:10:34 pm »

Then the red cross would be sending the convoy. It wouldn't be Russian military with trucks painted white this week.
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9093 on: August 13, 2014, 02:15:15 pm »

The simple fact that you don't know what's in this 'humanitarian' convoy is what makes it a hostile act. I know a little nation in the middle east that would've crated this entire convoy into oblivion without a second question after the sender refused to disclose the list of supplies included.
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

GrizzlyAdamz

  • Bay Watcher
  • Herp de derp
    • View Profile
    • Check this shit out
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9094 on: August 13, 2014, 02:21:52 pm »

And maybe Russia wants Ukraine to over-react.

From a pragmatic standpoint, repainting the vehicles gets the supplies together faster & more reliably. Repainting them offers some protection and in exchange commits them to liability for war-crimes as an assurance. If I wanted to get relief somewhere fast, I'd support doing just that- and this pragmatism is what Russia is standing on.
Supposedly Russia's agreed to ICRC oversight. We have yet to see real proof, but this ambiguity is in Russia's interest.

We shouldn't judge morality & prudence with Israel as the gold standard. Completely different situations. Ukraine cannot get away with the shit Israel does.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 02:24:09 pm by GrizzlyAdamz »
Logged
Badges of honor
GENERATION 11: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
Check this shit out- (it changes)
Profile->Modify Profile->Look and Layout->Current Theme: Default [Change]->Darkling (it's good for your eyes and looks better)

Ukrainian Ranger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9095 on: August 13, 2014, 02:22:02 pm »

That reminds me all that hysteria around "peace flotilla" that was heading to Gaza and stopped by Israel. That is how self-respecting country acts. End of story

If Ukraine doesn't allow something to enter a war-zone, then Ukraine has full right to bomb anything that ignores the warning. Even if that trucks will be full of pregnant woman - It will be Russian fault for anyone but Russians and bunch of pacifist Europeans that always bitch when whatever country acts in self-defense
Logged
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9096 on: August 13, 2014, 02:24:21 pm »

It's not illegal to attack an unmarked RC disguised military convoy if it enters your territory without permission.

It has nothing to do with reputation. It's called sovereign rights.
-Ukraine attacks all the trucks
-The trucks were empty
-Putin invades
-Just as keikaku

Ukrainian Ranger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9097 on: August 13, 2014, 02:28:04 pm »

If Putin wants to invade he will invade, if not he will not invade.
That is that simple. Casus beli like that changes nothing.

What difference between invading now and after convoy is bombed?
Logged
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9098 on: August 13, 2014, 02:30:05 pm »

What do we do when a nation shoots down a plane that enters its airspace without clearance?
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

mainiac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Na vazeal kwah-kai
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9099 on: August 13, 2014, 02:33:12 pm »

If I wanted to get relief somewhere fast, I'd support doing just that- and this pragmatism is what Russia is standing on.

That is utter crap.  If Russia wanted to speed this through they would work with the Red Cross and the supplies would already be delivered.
Logged
Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9100 on: August 13, 2014, 02:34:48 pm »

Russia confirmed for pragmatic by disguising military convoys as Red Cross. USA take notice next time we invade someone to just paint the vehicles white and Europe will support it.
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

Sergarr

  • Bay Watcher
  • (9) airheaded baka (9)
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9101 on: August 13, 2014, 02:35:05 pm »

What do we do when a nation shoots down a plane that enters its airspace without clearance?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents

Apparently lots of things, ranging from universal condemnation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007) to admitting an incident almost 50 years after it happened (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_1611). (side-note: I thought France was better than that...)

EDIT: Also I like how everybody just assumes that convoy is filled with military stuff, and wants to destroy it. Providing the extremely convenient casus belli. Seriously, are you working for Putin or are you just that oblivious?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 02:38:49 pm by Sergarr »
Logged
._.

Sergarr

  • Bay Watcher
  • (9) airheaded baka (9)
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9102 on: August 13, 2014, 02:39:38 pm »

I think Mict wants war.
Logged
._.

GrizzlyAdamz

  • Bay Watcher
  • Herp de derp
    • View Profile
    • Check this shit out
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9103 on: August 13, 2014, 02:40:11 pm »

If I wanted to get relief somewhere fast, I'd support doing just that- and this pragmatism is what Russia is standing on.

That is utter crap.  If Russia wanted to speed this through they would work with the Red Cross and the supplies would already be delivered.
No, they wouldnt. There's a reason the national guard gets mobilized for domestic emergencies. The logistics they can bring to bear are enormous. The red cross, while a big organization, can't compete with a nation's armed forces in this regard.
Logged
Badges of honor
GENERATION 11: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
Check this shit out- (it changes)
Profile->Modify Profile->Look and Layout->Current Theme: Default [Change]->Darkling (it's good for your eyes and looks better)

Ukrainian Ranger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9104 on: August 13, 2014, 02:41:55 pm »

Quote
Lots of people have said it's better to SEARCH THEM, not that they should be given free reign.

Again, how you gonna search them if they enter through the border that has no Ukrainian border controls?
Logged
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.
Pages: 1 ... 605 606 [607] 608 609 ... 1393