Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

[smjjames]

http://wpolityce.pl/swiat/209074-rosyjski-konwoj-humanitarny-jak-w-ruskim-cyrku-wczoraj-zolnierze-dzis-cywilni-pracownicy

Some soldier spoiled the beans on Russian 'facebook', writing about repainting 300 army trucks white. His profile is since gone, I wonder why? The link is in Polish, and Google Translate is not your friend in such situation, but many pictures speak for themselves or have captions in more reasonable languages.
Also, they started from Moscow, my guess is at least a full day before they will come close to the borders, although I'm not sure how fast military Trojan horse humanitarian aid (I mean, don't be ridiculous, let's just keep 'Russian') Russian convoys go.

I smell possible warcrime, because, well, you're not supposed to masterquade as the Red Cross, which are noncombatants, and if you can't be assured that the Red Cross is actually neutral, then the Red Cross is going to get attacked

I suppose that if they decided to break the budapest convention (or treaty), they then decided to ignore the geneva convention.

I wonder when the last time is that someone tried to pull that off? Deliberately Masterquading as the Red Cross like that.

Russian army trucks are designed in such a way that you can only move soldiers, weapons or ammunition in them, aren't they?
All other goods get vaporized the moment they appear in the cargo hold, I guess

Don't ask me, I don't know anything about the design of the army trucks.

A bit from Reuters and BBC:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/12/us-ukraine-crisis-eu-idUSKBN0GC10R20140812

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28766869

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28752878

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28751447

[Guardian G.I.]

http://wpolityce.pl/swiat/209074-rosyjski-konwoj-humanitarny-jak-w-ruskim-cyrku-wczoraj-zolnierze-dzis-cywilni-pracownicy

Some soldier spoiled the beans on Russian 'facebook', writing about repainting 300 army trucks white. His profile is since gone, I wonder why? The link is in Polish, and Google Translate is not your friend in such situation, but many pictures speak for themselves or have captions in more reasonable languages.
Also, they started from Moscow, my guess is at least a full day before they will come close to the borders, although I'm not sure how fast military Trojan horse humanitarian aid (I mean, don't be ridiculous, let's just keep 'Russian') Russian convoys go.

I smell possible warcrime, because, well, you're not supposed to masterquade as the Red Cross, which are noncombatants, and if you can't be assured that the Red Cross is actually neutral, then the Red Cross is going to get attacked

I suppose that if they decided to break the budapest convention (or treaty), they then decided to ignore the geneva convention.

I wonder when the last time is that someone tried to pull that off? Deliberately Masterquading as the Red Cross like that.

Russian army trucks are designed in such a way that you can only move soldiers, weapons or ammunition in them, aren't they?
All other goods get vaporized the moment they appear in the cargo hold, I guess

Don't ask me, I don't know anything about the design of the army trucks.

If the trucks were provided by the Russian military, it doesn't automatically mean that they contain military cargo.

Until the truck get to the border, we can't be absolutely sure what they contain.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

It looks very humanitarian

[BlindKitty]

Russian army trucks are designed in such a way that you can only move soldiers, weapons or ammunition in them, aren't they?
All other goods get vaporized the moment they appear in the cargo hold, I guess

Of course not, silly! You just somehow can't put them in there, because the inventory is marked as 'military stuff'. It's like trying to put sword in a quiver - there is just no such option. (OK, end of poor cRPG-inventory-system joke).

But one starts to think: why would they repaint the trucks? Why can't they just use old, green, military ones? Or take non-military ones? And why soldiers from one photo are suddenly white-clad humanitarian aid workers the next day? Why the profile got deleted all of the sudden if there is nothing to hide?

Also, why would anybody in their sane mind actually believe what Kremlin says without checking first?

[Dutchling]

Even better question: why on earth would Russia want to help those Ukrainians in the first place...

[smjjames]

Does anybody know whether painting the vehichles white and sending it as an aid convoy while actually not having humanitarian aid (ie, weapons instead of food) in it counts as a war crime? If they actually painted red crosses on there and had weapons instead of food and medicine, that would definetly be a war crime, but they're sort of pushing the definition here.

Russian army trucks are designed in such a way that you can only move soldiers, weapons or ammunition in them, aren't they?
All other goods get vaporized the moment they appear in the cargo hold, I guess

Of course not, silly! You just somehow can't put them in there, because the inventory is marked as 'military stuff'. It's like trying to put sword in a quiver - there is just no such option. (OK, end of poor cRPG-inventory-system joke).

But one starts to think: why would they repaint the trucks? Why can't they just use old, green, military ones? Or take non-military ones? And why soldiers from one photo are suddenly white-clad humanitarian aid workers the next day? Why the profile got deleted all of the sudden if there is nothing to hide?

Also, why would anybody in their sane mind actually believe what Kremlin says without checking first?

Yeah, too many suspicious things. One might say the white is the equivalent of the white flag and saying 'don't shoot me please.', but, the question remains......

[Loud Whispers]

Russian army trucks are designed in such a way that you can only move soldiers, weapons or ammunition in them, aren't they?

I saw you edit that smiley in.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Guardian G.I.]

Does anybody know whether painting the vehichles white and sending it as an aid convoy while actually not having humanitarian aid (ie, weapons instead of food) in it counts as a war crime? If they actually painted red crosses on there, that would definetly be a war crime, but they're sort of pushing the definition here.

Russian army trucks are designed in such a way that you can only move soldiers, weapons or ammunition in them, aren't they?
All other goods get vaporized the moment they appear in the cargo hold, I guess

Of course not, silly! You just somehow can't put them in there, because the inventory is marked as 'military stuff'. It's like trying to put sword in a quiver - there is just no such option. (OK, end of poor cRPG-inventory-system joke).

But one starts to think: why would they repaint the trucks? Why can't they just use old, green, military ones? Or take non-military ones? And why soldiers from one photo are suddenly white-clad humanitarian aid workers the next day? Why the profile got deleted all of the sudden if there is nothing to hide?

Also, why would anybody in their sane mind actually believe what Kremlin says without checking first?

Yeah, too many suspicious things. One might say the white is the equivalent of the white flag and saying 'don't shoot me please.', but, the question remains......

ITAR-TASS's website has this photo of the convoy.
Some of the trucks carry small Red Cross flags. However, they are too small to be seen from far away. Furthermore, it's not clear whether the photo is authentic or not.

[WarRoot]

To a large degree, the original Nazis took their ideas directly from the Communists,

You are ignoring that they both took their ideas from Hammurabi who thought up the idea of making decrees and having them written down.

Poor Hammu, he should have patented his ideas then we would be living without the burden of totalitarian states.

[smjjames]

They're REALLY pushing the boundaries of the geneva convention aren't they? Not sure what the geneva convention says about red cross flags though.

[smjjames]

In an attempt to further understand about usage of the red cross on flags...

http://books.google.com/books?id=DJTxx-9ayFcC&pg=PA1287&lpg=PA1287&dq=red+cross+war+crime+flag&source=bl&ots=_xjMi6jvfe&sig=HVGeQ5-yK0m_ltva2F97mVkaCw4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YIbqU7bGBNTboATF6IAQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=red%20cross%20war%20crime%20flag&f=false

This one is from a book dating back to 1915:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9mV59LIBlAcC&pg=PA208&lpg=PA208&dq=red+cross+war+crime+flag&source=bl&ots=nnQOo9y8cR&sig=Z1RiqaPxVDq2YI53hu4sirvhkcE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cIfqU9haibqhBPTrgrgE&ved=0CB8Q6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=red%20cross%20war%20crime%20flag&f=false

Edit: Sorry for double post, I kind of thought others might post in between.

http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_cha_chapter44_rule156 I don't know if they're using the flag perfidously.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

I'm actually more worried about deliberately trying to cause an incident by attempting to steam across the border.
The gambit here is laying claim to the area- ignoring the sovereignty of Ukraine & 'taking care of their brothers'.

They get through, Ukraine looks like a bitch that doesn't really govern their country, Russia gets brownie points for providing aid and strengthen their claim on the people & the region.

They don't get through and/or there's violence, they decry the Ukrainian government as (possibly murderous) monsters. And also establish more support for getting more directly involved.


I'm not too worried about anything as outrageous as a red cross trojan horse, or even supplying the rebels, (they're already doing that). They don't need to do any of that.

[Loud Whispers]

I'm not too worried about anything as outrageous as a red cross trojan horse, or even supplying the rebels, (they're already doing that). They don't need to do any of that.

Oh yeah, that's a good point. Why would they risk massive war crimes to do something they're already doing?

[MarcAFK]

I have to side with GI here, if Russia is going to be sending trucks it makes sense to use military vehicles which they have in abundance, using soldiers too is probably the cheapest option anyway. The only suspicious thing about it is the lack of transparency, the soldier's deleted profile etc, but in Putviet Russia nothing is transparent and everything looks shady.
I agree with grizzly adamz, Russia only needs to provide actual humanitarian aid there to strengthen it's position, however they'll have an option of arguing that the aid areas need to be militarily secured for the good of their 'aid workers' and the local people, so it's possible they have ulterior motives even if real aid is the goal.

[mainiac]

I'm not too worried about anything as outrageous as a red cross trojan horse, or even supplying the rebels, (they're already doing that). They don't need to do any of that.

Oh yeah, that's a good point. Why would they risk massive war crimes to do something they're already doing?

The convoy is going to an area that they dont have access too, Donetsk is cut off from the rebel held areas on the Russian border.

While it seems like a penny wise, pound foolish move to me, that pretty much describes the entire Russian strategy up until this point.  Every step along the way people have said "no way they would be that aggressive, it's just stupid." and then we find out that they were in fact annexing Crimea, they were in fact sending weapons to the rebels, they were in fact deploying special forces.  Russia has already the chance to develop into a first world nation, what's a little more international condemnation.

Not saying we know they did it but the "they wouldn't be that dumb" argument stopped making sense months ago.