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[MetalSlimeHunt]

It is. Officially, the only proper way to dispose of a US flag is to cut the star part off of the stripe part, then fold the whole thing and burn it on an elevated surface.

Also, interestingly, while flag burning is legal in the US, there are other countries where you could get arrested for burning an American flag because their flag-burning laws apply to all national flags.

[Reelya]

Russia is needed to deal with the rebels.

That is assuming they haven't lost control of them already, of course.

Honestly, they wouldn't be rebels if the other lot hadn't staged a coup detat. So both groups are rebels based on who you ask.

It's not a situation of a peaceful elected government, then these rebels causing trouble. They HAD an elected  government of the other lot, then this other lot of particular rebels took over the country, forcing the supporters of the previous government into armed opposition. Our media just supports the last lot of rebels as the "legitimate government" because they signed a deal with the EU. It's a fully-fledged civil war with neither side having a "right" to rule as such.

[Owlbread]

I'm trying to avoid talking about the Opening Ceremony of the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow yesterday (it was atrocious) and the games in general because I don't have anything positive to say but I thought this was quite a profound thing.

The South African opera singer Pumeza Matshikiza sang "Freedom Come All Ye", one of the candidates for a Scottish national anthem, written in the 1960s. I would say though it's more of an "international" anthem, as the writer himself saw it; Hamish Henderson, a renowned Scottish Socialist poet and intellectual. She also sang it in full Scots too, with good pronunciation. I was very impressed.

Here is wikipedia's succinct description:

One of Henderson's most important songs, it presents a non-romantic, revisionist view of the role of the Scots in the world at the time it was written. It describes a wind of change blowing through Scotland and the world at large, sweeping away exploitation and imperialism. It renounces the tradition of the Scottish soldier both as imperial cannon-fodder and colonial oppressor and ends with a vision of a future global society which is multiracial and just.

The tune is actually a First World War pipe tune called "The Bloody Fields of Flanders". Henderson heard it being played on the pipes on an Anzio beachhead when he fought in the Second World War.

Scottish history is also referenced, such as the Highland clearances and the simple fact of folk leaving for the Americas and elsewhere - the "weans mourning the ships sailing doon the Broomielaw" would be children crying at their loved ones sailing away from them along the river Clyde, possibly forever. When Henderson implies that "Maclean meeting with his friends in Springburn" is an example of this "Freedom" we can have, he's referring to my hero John Maclean, a Scottish Communist and anti-war activist who died imprisoned for his beliefs by the British government; his health having deterioriated so badly through force feeding during his hunger strikes. He had a poem dedicated to him posthumously by the Scottish Communist/Nationalist poet Hugh MacDiarmid; namely "Krassivy, Krassivy" - so called as MacDiarmid translated the Russian adjective as "beautiful and red".

But yes, when Maclean would have the right to meet with his friends (fellow Communists) in Springburn without being imprisoned, then that's a free society.

I personally love the song. You will find my worldview tucked within its verses. There's a few other versions out there, I thought this one was very good. That's probably one of my favourites. I liked Luke Kelly's version too.

Spoiler: Here are the Scots lyrics as she sang them (click to show/hide)

Roch the wind in the clear day's dawin
Blaws the cloods heilster-gowdie owre the bay
But there's mair nor a roch wind blawin
Thro the Great Glen o the warld the day
It's a thocht that wad gar oor rottans
Aa thae rogues that gang gallus fresh an gay
Tak the road an seek ither loanins
Wi thair ill-ploys tae sport an play
     
Nae mair will our bonnie callants
Merch tae war when oor braggarts crousely craw
Nor wee weans frae pitheid an clachan
Mourn the ships sailin doun the Broomielaw
Broken faimlies in lands we've hairriet
Will curse 'Scotlan the Brave' nae mair, nae mair
Black an white ane-til-ither mairriet
Mak the vile barracks o thair maisters bare
     
Sae come aa ye at hame wi freedom
Never heed whit the houdies croak for Doom
In yer hoose aa the bairns o Adam
Will find breid, barley-bree an paintit room
When Maclean meets wi's friens in Springburn
Aa thae roses an geans will turn tae blume
An yon black boy frae yont Nyanga
Dings the fell gallows o the burghers doun.

Spoiler: Here are the English lyrics. (click to show/hide)

Rough the wind in the clear day's dawning
Blows the clouds head over heels over the bay
But there's more than a rough wind blowing
Through the Great Glen of the world today
It's a thought that would make our rats
All those rogues that go boldly fresh and gay
Take the road to seek other pastures
With their ill-ploys to sport and play
     
No more will our handsome youths
March to war when our braggarts arrogantly crow
Nor small children from pithead and village
Mourn the ships sailing down the Broomielaw
Broken families in lands we've harried
Will curse Scotland the Brave no more, no more
Black and white to each other married
Make the vile barracks of their masters bare
     
So come all you at home with freedom
Never heed what the hooded crows croak for Doom
In your house all the children of Adam
Will find bread, whisky and painted room
When Maclean meets with his friends in Springburn
All those roses and wild cherries will turn to bloom
And the black boy over there from far Nyanga
Knocks the cruel gallows of the burghers down.

But yes, it was quite beautiful to see a black South African woman standing on a stage singing Freedom Come All Ye to an international audience. One can't help but think that the "black lad frae yont Nyanga" has finally "dinged the fell gallows of the burghers doon". If only Henderson could have seen that.

[Reelya]

As for the plane that got shot down. It's obviously bad that that happened, but it was also obviously NOT an intentional shooting-down of a civilian plane. It serves no purpose for the separatists at all to do so.

Does accidentally shooting down a civilian jumbo jet count as a terrorist act?

America did the same thing in 1988 when a US navy vessel breached Iranian territorial waters and proceeded to shoot down an Iranian airliner - over Iranian airspace, flying a regular scheduled flight. 290 dead. America is the ONLY national government that's ever done that - used regular military to shoot down someone else's Airliner over their own territory. We don't hold US as terrorists for this - we recognize they legitimately mistook it for a military craft - and this was on a state of the art Aegis cruiser with the best detection gear.

Should America be held responsible for what other non-American do with the weapons they sell / provide etc? Normally we don't hold America responsible for this. Look at El Salvador where American trained and supplied units killed a LOT of Catholics / rebels trade unionists / human rights campaigners / random villagers etc. They killed about 30000 in a single year there, 100 times as many as died on that plane. And it was all deliberate with oversight and supplies, funding from the USA. I don't hear America apologizing for that.

It's the principle of universality. If we don't hold our lot responsible for what external armed groups do with weapons etc we provide, then we can't hold other governments responsible for doing the same thing. It becomes a double-standard.

Russia and these rebels, the connection seems WAY more tenuous than the link between USA and the El Salvador Death Squads - those squads had US military advisers attached. And they knew exactly what was going on as those death squads exterminated entire villages. This was no accidental downing of a plane.

Accidentally shooting down the wrong plane over a warzone is way less than what America is guilty of. America goes hlfway around the world to shoot down your own planes, on your own routes. This was a bunch of locals in a civil war and a foreign plane got shot down. Why you'd fly over a warzone is beyond me. Other flights knew not to go there. That adds credence to a Russian claim that the plane was off course.

[stabbymcstabstab]

America isn't the only country who military shot down a civilian aircraft, didn't the Soviets do the same thing?

[Reelya]

I specifically pointed out that America is the only country that sends their military to you and shoots your airliners down. Other countries have shot down planes which strayed into their own territory, whereas the USA is the only country that has hunted down airliners in someone elses country that were flying a regular route with the proper signals and everything flashing.

The one the soviets shot down was hundreds of miles off=course and strayed over Russian territory twice, during a US recon mission. That was understandable to be taken as a threat.

Remember, the USA claims to have mistaken an Airbus A300 for an F14 Tomcat in the Iranian incident. Mistaking a civilian plane for a military plane is definitely possible. BTW, those dudes all got medal from the USA. Can you imagine the stink they'd make if another country awarded medals to guys who shot down an airliner?

Here's a list of incidents. Note that around the time of the Soviet one, NATO forces seem to have accidentally shot down one over Italy. Shit happen, we don't hear about it when our side does it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents

[10ebbor10]

America isn't the only country who military shot down a civilian aircraft, didn't the Soviets do the same thing?

It happens quite often, but the us is the only nation that has shot down a civilian airliner while being in that countries naval waters.

Technically, that ons should considered as an act of terror. Us helicopters provoked iranian patrol boats in iranian waters, then invaded an engaged said iranian vessel, then attacked a civilian plane which, according to records from the ships system, was identified as a civilian plane, and was not threathening the ship.

[Reelya]

I'm just reading that back in 2001 the Ukranian military shot down a Russia airliner over the Black Sea. That's kind of interesting. Do we only kick up a stink when it's our lot on the plane? We like to say the world demands this or that, but we tend to only give a shit when it affects our lot.

[10ebbor10]

The ukraine accident was a bit differeny. Missile from an exercise failed to self destruct after it's target was destroyed, and instead targetted the plane.

[Propman]

http://www.examiner.com/article/jim-willie-source-confirms-that-germany-is-ready-to-leave-eu-euro-and-nato

It appears that some interesting words have been flung as of late regarding Germany's status on the western stage. Will it ever amount to something? Likely not, but still, discussions!

[mainiac]

It's very unlikely that Germany would leave the Euro.  It would massively decrease the competitiveness of their exports not just within Europe but worldwide in even a best case scenario.  Worst case scenario... jeez I dont even know where to begin.  A third financial crisis of the nature of the US housing collapse and the European sovereign debt crisis.

[smjjames]

Isn't Germany an economic powerhouse (if not THE powerhouse) for the Euro and the EU?

[vagel7]

It is and it also gets a lot of benefits from being in the Eurozone and in the EU.

1) The euro keeps Germany's tariffs. The tariffs would be huge if there would be a gigantic deutsche mark hovering on the graphs.
2) Easy import-export within the EU, which is a huge market.
3) Free movement of people within the EU.(workers, tourists etc)
4) Germany is doing a hell of a lot to keep the EU together and contributed a lot when we had the recession and Greece, Ireland and Portugal were hit really really hard.

There is of course many more reasons why Germany would not abandon the EU. Also yeah, it is THE economical powerhouse in the EU and the EU actually helps it with that.

[martinuzz]

Isn't Germany an economic powerhouse (if not THE powerhouse) for the Euro and the EU?

Yes. If Germany were to leave, EU would collapse faster than a Palestinian hospital

Now it is well known that Germany (and a lot of other EU countries) have developed a recent grudge against the USA, because well, spying on your allies with no regard to international laws, like NSA was (/is) doing, tends to piss people off.
But leave the EU? C'mon, really?
I cannot believe that linked article to be anything but a troll.

[vagel7]

The US thing wasn't a surprise at all. The scope of it on the general populace was. I think that pretty much every country spies on every other country to some extent. But the Snowden incident was just something that the international community could use to cast a better light on themselves.

However the scope of the spying was too much(bugging embassies and rooms where important international people would be staying or having conversations etc).