Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

Can we make a nice gaussian-looking curve?

A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A

Pages: 1 ... 541 542 [543] 544 545 ... 1393

Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1770818 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8130 on: July 24, 2014, 05:48:50 pm »

It is. Officially, the only proper way to dispose of a US flag is to cut the star part off of the stripe part, then fold the whole thing and burn it on an elevated surface.

Also, interestingly, while flag burning is legal in the US, there are other countries where you could get arrested for burning an American flag because their flag-burning laws apply to all national flags.
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Reelya

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8131 on: July 24, 2014, 05:54:07 pm »

Russia is needed to deal with the rebels.

That is assuming they haven't lost control of them already, of course.

Honestly, they wouldn't be rebels if the other lot hadn't staged a coup detat. So both groups are rebels based on who you ask.

It's not a situation of a peaceful elected government, then these rebels causing trouble. They HAD an elected  government of the other lot, then this other lot of particular rebels took over the country, forcing the supporters of the previous government into armed opposition. Our media just supports the last lot of rebels as the "legitimate government" because they signed a deal with the EU. It's a fully-fledged civil war with neither side having a "right" to rule as such.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 05:58:01 pm by Reelya »
Logged

Owlbread

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8132 on: July 24, 2014, 05:54:51 pm »

I'm trying to avoid talking about the Opening Ceremony of the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow yesterday (it was atrocious) and the games in general because I don't have anything positive to say but I thought this was quite a profound thing.

The South African opera singer Pumeza Matshikiza sang "Freedom Come All Ye", one of the candidates for a Scottish national anthem, written in the 1960s. I would say though it's more of an "international" anthem, as the writer himself saw it; Hamish Henderson, a renowned Scottish Socialist poet and intellectual. She also sang it in full Scots too, with good pronunciation. I was very impressed.

Here is wikipedia's succinct description:

Quote from: Wikipedia
One of Henderson's most important songs, it presents a non-romantic, revisionist view of the role of the Scots in the world at the time it was written. It describes a wind of change blowing through Scotland and the world at large, sweeping away exploitation and imperialism. It renounces the tradition of the Scottish soldier both as imperial cannon-fodder and colonial oppressor and ends with a vision of a future global society which is multiracial and just.

The tune is actually a First World War pipe tune called "The Bloody Fields of Flanders". Henderson heard it being played on the pipes on an Anzio beachhead when he fought in the Second World War.

Scottish history is also referenced, such as the Highland clearances and the simple fact of folk leaving for the Americas and elsewhere - the "weans mourning the ships sailing doon the Broomielaw" would be children crying at their loved ones sailing away from them along the river Clyde, possibly forever. When Henderson implies that "Maclean meeting with his friends in Springburn" is an example of this "Freedom" we can have, he's referring to my hero John Maclean, a Scottish Communist and anti-war activist who died imprisoned for his beliefs by the British government; his health having deterioriated so badly through force feeding during his hunger strikes. He had a poem dedicated to him posthumously by the Scottish Communist/Nationalist poet Hugh MacDiarmid; namely "Krassivy, Krassivy" - so called as MacDiarmid translated the Russian adjective as "beautiful and red".

But yes, when Maclean would have the right to meet with his friends (fellow Communists) in Springburn without being imprisoned, then that's a free society.

I personally love the song. You will find my worldview tucked within its verses. There's a few other versions out there, I thought this one was very good. That's probably one of my favourites. I liked Luke Kelly's version too.



But yes, it was quite beautiful to see a black South African woman standing on a stage singing Freedom Come All Ye to an international audience. One can't help but think that the "black lad frae yont Nyanga" has finally "dinged the fell gallows of the burghers doon". If only Henderson could have seen that.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 06:11:27 pm by Owlbread »
Logged

Reelya

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8133 on: July 24, 2014, 06:09:20 pm »

As for the plane that got shot down. It's obviously bad that that happened, but it was also obviously NOT an intentional shooting-down of a civilian plane. It serves no purpose for the separatists at all to do so.

Does accidentally shooting down a civilian jumbo jet count as a terrorist act?

America did the same thing in 1988 when a US navy vessel breached Iranian territorial waters and proceeded to shoot down an Iranian airliner - over Iranian airspace, flying a regular scheduled flight. 290 dead. America is the ONLY national government that's ever done that - used regular military to shoot down someone else's Airliner over their own territory. We don't hold US as terrorists for this - we recognize they legitimately mistook it for a military craft - and this was on a state of the art Aegis cruiser with the best detection gear.

Should America be held responsible for what other non-American do with the weapons they sell / provide etc? Normally we don't hold America responsible for this. Look at El Salvador where American trained and supplied units killed a LOT of Catholics / rebels trade unionists / human rights campaigners / random villagers etc. They killed about 30000 in a single year there, 100 times as many as died on that plane. And it was all deliberate with oversight and supplies, funding from the USA. I don't hear America apologizing for that.

It's the principle of universality. If we don't hold our lot responsible for what external armed groups do with weapons etc we provide, then we can't hold other governments responsible for doing the same thing. It becomes a double-standard.

Russia and these rebels, the connection seems WAY more tenuous than the link between USA and the El Salvador Death Squads - those squads had US military advisers attached. And they knew exactly what was going on as those death squads exterminated entire villages. This was no accidental downing of a plane.

Accidentally shooting down the wrong plane over a warzone is way less than what America is guilty of. America goes hlfway around the world to shoot down your own planes, on your own routes. This was a bunch of locals in a civil war and a foreign plane got shot down. Why you'd fly over a warzone is beyond me. Other flights knew not to go there. That adds credence to a Russian claim that the plane was off course.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 06:20:36 pm by Reelya »
Logged

stabbymcstabstab

  • Bay Watcher
  • OW SNAP!
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8134 on: July 24, 2014, 06:37:09 pm »

America isn't the only country who military shot down a civilian aircraft, didn't the Soviets do the same thing?
Logged
Long Live Arst- United Forenia!
"Wanna be a better liberal? Go get shot in the fuckin' face."
Contemplate why we have a sociopathic necrophiliac RAPIST sadomasochist bipolar monster in our ranks, also find some cheese.

Reelya

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8135 on: July 24, 2014, 06:53:49 pm »

I specifically pointed out that America is the only country that sends their military to you and shoots your airliners down. Other countries have shot down planes which strayed into their own territory, whereas the USA is the only country that has hunted down airliners in someone elses country that were flying a regular route with the proper signals and everything flashing.

The one the soviets shot down was hundreds of miles off=course and strayed over Russian territory twice, during a US recon mission. That was understandable to be taken as a threat.

Remember, the USA claims to have mistaken an Airbus A300 for an F14 Tomcat in the Iranian incident. Mistaking a civilian plane for a military plane is definitely possible. BTW, those dudes all got medal from the USA. Can you imagine the stink they'd make if another country awarded medals to guys who shot down an airliner?

Here's a list of incidents. Note that around the time of the Soviet one, NATO forces seem to have accidentally shot down one over Italy. Shit happen, we don't hear about it when our side does it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 07:19:02 pm by Reelya »
Logged

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8136 on: July 24, 2014, 06:56:42 pm »

America isn't the only country who military shot down a civilian aircraft, didn't the Soviets do the same thing?
It happens quite often, but the us is the only nation that has shot down a civilian airliner while being in that countries naval waters.

Technically, that ons should considered as an act of terror. Us helicopters provoked iranian patrol boats in iranian waters, then invaded an engaged said iranian vessel, then attacked a civilian plane which, according to records from the ships system, was identified as a civilian plane, and was not threathening the ship.
Logged

Reelya

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8137 on: July 24, 2014, 07:22:43 pm »

I'm just reading that back in 2001 the Ukranian military shot down a Russia airliner over the Black Sea. That's kind of interesting. Do we only kick up a stink when it's our lot on the plane? We like to say the world demands this or that, but we tend to only give a shit when it affects our lot.

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8138 on: July 24, 2014, 07:25:15 pm »

The ukraine accident was a bit differeny. Missile from an exercise failed to self destruct after it's target was destroyed, and instead targetted the plane.
Logged

Propman

  • Bay Watcher
  • Eh.
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8139 on: July 24, 2014, 08:50:40 pm »

http://www.examiner.com/article/jim-willie-source-confirms-that-germany-is-ready-to-leave-eu-euro-and-nato

It appears that some interesting words have been flung as of late regarding Germany's status on the western stage. Will it ever amount to something? Likely not, but still, discussions!
Logged
Quote from: from Pathos on April 07, 2010, 08:29:05 pm »
( It was inevitable, really. )

mainiac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Na vazeal kwah-kai
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8140 on: July 24, 2014, 09:17:14 pm »

It's very unlikely that Germany would leave the Euro.  It would massively decrease the competitiveness of their exports not just within Europe but worldwide in even a best case scenario.  Worst case scenario... jeez I dont even know where to begin.  A third financial crisis of the nature of the US housing collapse and the European sovereign debt crisis.
Logged
Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

smjjames

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8141 on: July 25, 2014, 12:08:37 am »

Isn't Germany an economic powerhouse (if not THE powerhouse) for the Euro and the EU?
Logged

vagel7

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8142 on: July 25, 2014, 02:13:09 am »

It is and it also gets a lot of benefits from being in the Eurozone and in the EU.

1) The euro keeps Germany's tariffs. The tariffs would be huge if there would be a gigantic deutsche mark hovering on the graphs.
2) Easy import-export within the EU, which is a huge market.
3) Free movement of people within the EU.(workers, tourists etc)
4) Germany is doing a hell of a lot to keep the EU together and contributed a lot when we had the recession and Greece, Ireland and Portugal were hit really really hard.

There is of course many more reasons why Germany would not abandon the EU. Also yeah, it is THE economical powerhouse in the EU and the EU actually helps it with that.
Logged
That last gobbo would stand there, missing an arm, punctured in a kidney, liver, and spleen, fading in and out of consciousness at the far end of where the drawbridge would go, and his last sight would be the drawbridge dropping down and smashing him like a bug.

God DAMN I love this game!

martinuzz

  • Bay Watcher
  • High dwarf
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8143 on: July 25, 2014, 02:48:28 am »

Isn't Germany an economic powerhouse (if not THE powerhouse) for the Euro and the EU?

Yes. If Germany were to leave, EU would collapse faster than a Palestinian hospital

Now it is well known that Germany (and a lot of other EU countries) have developed a recent grudge against the USA, because well, spying on your allies with no regard to international laws, like NSA was (/is) doing, tends to piss people off.
But leave the EU? C'mon, really?
I cannot believe that linked article to be anything but a troll.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 03:16:58 am by martinuzz »
Logged
Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

vagel7

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8144 on: July 25, 2014, 03:00:55 am »

The US thing wasn't a surprise at all. The scope of it on the general populace was. I think that pretty much every country spies on every other country to some extent. But the Snowden incident was just something that the international community could use to cast a better light on themselves.

However the scope of the spying was too much(bugging embassies and rooms where important international people would be staying or having conversations etc).
Logged
That last gobbo would stand there, missing an arm, punctured in a kidney, liver, and spleen, fading in and out of consciousness at the far end of where the drawbridge would go, and his last sight would be the drawbridge dropping down and smashing him like a bug.

God DAMN I love this game!
Pages: 1 ... 541 542 [543] 544 545 ... 1393