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[Helgoland]

Hope Porosheno got the massage and  will not dare to say something like: "Two more weeks of ceasefire, we seek peace" or worse" We reached an agreement with them and pulling the troops away".

Well, when you are not trying to reach an agreement with a part of your country, you shouldn't really be surprised that the part in question wants to secede. :-)

Dude, those 'separatists' are like 70% Russian by now. We simply don't know what the people of Eastern Ukraine want, and the rebels are making finding out impossible.
Same goes for Russia and the Crimeans, by the way - it could very well be that they wanted to secede, but now we'll never know.

[Sergarr]

Hope Porosheno got the massage and  will not dare to say something like: "Two more weeks of ceasefire, we seek peace" or worse" We reached an agreement with them and pulling the troops away".

Well, when you are not trying to reach an agreement with a part of your country, you shouldn't really be surprised that the part in question wants to secede. :-)

Dude, those 'separatists' are like 70% Russian by now. We simply don't know what the people of Eastern Ukraine want, and the rebels are making finding out impossible.
Same goes for Russia and the Crimeans, by the way - it could very well be that they wanted to secede, but now we'll never know.

I'm reasonably sure that 70% of Eastern Ukraine think of themselves as Russians...

[smjjames]

Hope Porosheno got the massage and  will not dare to say something like: "Two more weeks of ceasefire, we seek peace" or worse" We reached an agreement with them and pulling the troops away".

Well, when you are not trying to reach an agreement with a part of your country, you shouldn't really be surprised that the part in question wants to secede. :-)

Dude, those 'separatists' are like 70% Russian by now. We simply don't know what the people of Eastern Ukraine want, and the rebels are making finding out impossible.
Same goes for Russia and the Crimeans, by the way - it could very well be that they wanted to secede, but now we'll never know.

I'm reasonably sure that 70% of Eastern Ukraine think of themselves as Russians...

He still has a point, we don't know and probably won't know what the rest of the people there actually want.

Right now though, they probably want the fighting to stop.

Also, we've heard of lots of refugees crossing the Russian border, what about the other direction, west into Ukraine?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Actually, we do know what Eastern Ukraine wants, Pew did polling on this very subject.

[Dutchling]

Actually, we do know what Eastern Ukraine wants, Pew did polling on this very subject.

Not the Pew I was expecting.

[Owlbread]

Do you have sources for that, or is it "IIRC", too?

It's been in every book I've read that mentions the Aral Sea disaster and the effects on Kazakhstan/Karakalpakstan. Off the top of my head - the most detailed descriptions were in the travel novels "The Lost Heart of Asia", and  "Out of Steppe - the Lost Tribes of Central Asia" and a few other books where guys traveled to the disaster zone.

[Lav]

Actually, those evil separatists who, as some people here claim, prevent us from learning the opinion of Eastern Ukraine, started by organizing a referendum to ask for the opinion of people of Eastern Ukraine. And they did invite whatever observers wished to attend. Of course, we'll never know what the real results of that referendum would be since Kiev government did everything up to and including use of military force to prevent that referendum from ever happening, and all European countries conveniently ignored the event and didn't send any observers at all.

But of course it's the fault of Russia and evil East-Ukrainian separatists that we cannot now know the true opinion of people of East Ukraine. I see the logic... not. :-)

The part begs to stop the ceasefire and start liberating it from Russian invaders and local collaborating gangs

Sure, and of course the "anti-terrorist force" enjoys the support of local population with all associated benefits, like all enemy troop movements being transparent for them in near-realtime? Except it seems that it's the separatists who are perfectly well-informed about Kiev troops' movements. I wonder why...

I'm reasonably sure that 70% of Eastern Ukraine think of themselves as Russians...

Actually, much less as far as I'm aware. At least according to relatively recent polls (don't remember the years though - 2012? 2013?). Of course that's pretty situational: when USSR disintegrated, number of self-proclaimed Russians in Eastern Ukraine instantly dropped by something like 30% of total population. It suddenly became a trend to consider themselves Ukrainians - and many people did exactly that.

Right now though, they probably want the fighting to stop.

That's for sure, the difference in opinion between Kiev and Donetsk/Lugansk is how.

Also, we've heard of lots of refugees crossing the Russian border, what about the other direction, west into Ukraine?

According to Kiev, there are no refugees in Ukraine. At least that was the stated reason for their refusal of humanitarian aid from Russia. :-)

Actually, we do know what Eastern Ukraine wants, Pew did polling on this very subject.

As the article clearly states, that was before the violence in Odessa and Mariupol, which changed the opinions a lot and contributed to the shift in demands from "autonomy" to "secession".

[Lav]

Same goes for Russia and the Crimeans, by the way - it could very well be that they wanted to secede, but now we'll never know.

Those who want to know can always fund another referendum. Of course, if they really wanted to know, they could have easily send observers to the original event. :-)

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Sure, and of course the "anti-terrorist force" enjoys the support of local population with all associated benefits, like all enemy troop movements being transparent for them in near-realtime?

Who said that they don't get that info? You really think our armed forces have no local informers? Few % of support is enough for that....

Except it seems that it's the separatists who are perfectly well-informed about Kiev troops' movements. I wonder why...

I never said that they have no support among locals. As I said few % is enough for such informing. But I think they get way more info from Russian agents in Ukrainian command staff, Russian Radio-electronic intelligence and Russian UAVs then from any locals.

Those who want to know can always fund another referendum. Of course, if they really wanted to know, they could have easily send observers to the original event. :-)

I like how Soviets believe that only vote count is important in referendum\elections. Completely neglecting others aspects of a fair plebiscite

[Descan]

An impartial vote would probably have to be administered by someone third-party or impartial, but can't be pushed around by either powers. China or India or both at once, or the U.N.*, or possibly Australia (Canada, as a member of NATO, probably not).

*While they can be pushed around by the Americans, they can also be pushed around by the Russians, so that cancels out.

[Guardian G.I.]

An impartial vote would probably have to be administered by someone third-party or impartial, but can't be pushed around by either powers. China or India or both at once, or the U.N.*, or possibly Australia (Canada, as a member of NATO, probably not).

*While they can be pushed around by the Americans, they can also be pushed around by the Russians, so that cancels out.

Australia is an American ally (it's not a NATO member, but it is a part of ANZUS) - it can't be considered a third-party. Latin American and South American countries are too pro-Russian. The only remaining countries that can probably be neutral supervisors are located in Africa and the rest of Asia.

[scrdest]

Same goes for Russia and the Crimeans, by the way - it could very well be that they wanted to secede, but now we'll never know.

Those who want to know can always fund another referendum. Of course, if they really wanted to know, they could have easily send observers to the original event. :-)

Sorry for the derail, but I didn't know you were a Bay12er Lav (I recognize you from Taleworlds).

[Descan]

Yeah, but they *do* exist. Just a question of if anybody in the right position thinks to ask them, and if they agree to do it.

[Sergarr]

I swear, these Russians just keep coming. And yet there's only one Ukrainian guy.

This doesn't seem fair.

[LordSlowpoke]

yeah, because life is fair

of all the things you could have said as vague support you had to choose one of the most bullshit ones