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[Sheb]

Let's run a quick test.

What's your position on:
Legalizing Weed?
Nuclear Power?
Shifting taxation to carbon?
Immigration?
European Integration?

[Guardian G.I.]

Historic treatment of russians and ukrainians by tatars hasn't been one bit better than the reverse

Relevant.
Why did Russia conquer Crimea, and later on the Caucausus? Raids on Russian lands was the sole reason. Any other state of that era would probably do the same.
For some reason, Western media have always omitted this chapter of history of Crimean Tatars when speaking about history of Crimea - thus it appears that peace-loving Crimean Tatars were living on the Crimean peninsula not bothering anyone until suddenly Russians came and crushed their peace-loving state in 1774.

[Sheb]

I don't remember anyone complaining about Russia invading those places. I mean, have you looked at the British Empire? No, what we bitched about was about the massacre/genocide of 1864 in the Caucasus and the deportation of the Tatars in 1944. And the refusal to apologize for it.

[Helgoland]

What's your position on:

Legalizing Weed? Sure - just tax it so that the users themselves pay for the health issues they cause.
Nuclear Power? Meh - not well implemented currently, partly because research has been hindered for political reasons (in Germany, at least). I'd like to see fusion-fission hybrid technology though; it would increase efficiency, enable us to use more isotopes, reduce the amount of waste, and reduce the waste's half-life.
Shifting taxation to carbon? I'll assume you mean introducing a carbon tax - I'm actually against that, because it would be very difficult to determine the right taxation rate: It would eventually just become another source of revenue and one more way to give out political favors. Cap-and-trade (with a sufficiently low cap) is much more elegant.
Immigration? Sure, why not - especially when talking about skilled people. Of course we can't just let in anyone who comes knocking; but the way to stop them from doing so is getting the African economy running. Eliminating subsidies and tying aid to anti-corruption efforts would be good first steps.
European Integration? Hell yes - why do you even ask?

[Sheb]

See! We agree on basically everything, by and large! But then, this is probably true of most people on this forum.  I still don't get why you call yourself a conservative though.

As for the carbon tax, I actually think cap-and-trade is much more susceptible to political favor than carbon tax. Just look at the ECTS! (By the way, the guy who implemented it is a friend of my dad. Hearing him rails against how the politicians destroyed it was enlightening). And getting another source of revenue is the point. I still don't get why we get our money from taxing stuff we like (like work) rather than taxing stuff we don't (like carbon).

[scriver]

I'm actually pretty conservative

I'm not sure why you'd think this statement would surprise anyone.

Pre-edit: except Sheb, apparently. Sheb, you really need to get better at reading people

[Loud Whispers]

I don't remember anyone complaining about Russia invading those places. I mean, have you looked at the British Empire? No, what we bitched about was about the massacre/genocide of 1864 in the Caucasus and the deportation of the Tatars in 1944. And the refusal to apologize for it.

No different from us brushing over the expulsions of the germans, turkey and azerbaijan denying the armenian genocide and japan, just japan. Heck, with turkey and azerbaijan they're not just refusing to apologize, they're refusing its existence. So japan again. To add to that, asking for the russians to get behind tatars as a civic identity, to give tatars exclusive voting rights after having enslaved millions of slavs, just won't work. It has to be a fresh start between equals because otherwise you won't get anything done, people will hold onto the conflicts of their ancestors if you hold onto the crimes of their ancestors.

[scriver]

"Equals" on this matter would mean strengthening Crimean Tartars somehow, as right now they're politically, economically and socially powerless and discriminated against. Just cutting loose all historical baggage would just mean forgetting why they are such a vulnerable minority today. They'd still be as vulnerable.

Edit: Oh, just for your information, Erdogan actually acknowledged the Armenian genocide just a few weeks ago. He didn't exactly go into details about who had committed it, though (at least not in the quotes I read).

[Helgoland]

I still don't get why you call yourself a conservative though.

I'm a fiscal conservative, I support religiousness, I've got a soft spot for leaders with authoritarian streaks (like FDR or Merkel), I'm strongly against more direct democracy, I in fact hold democracy to be a means instead of an ends, I usually favor a market-based approach over a statist one, I'm for free trade, I strongly dislike undue interference with the free market such as price controls or non-temporary or corrective subsidies, I've got my issues with affirmative action, and when in doubt, I'd rather refrain from experiments.


I'm not a dumb conservative, though, maybe that's what you're sensing

[scrdest]

I still don't get why you call yourself a conservative though.

I'm a fiscal conservative, I support religiousness, I've got a soft spot for leaders with authoritarian streaks (like FDR or Merkel), I'm strongly against more direct democracy, I in fact hold democracy to be a means instead of an ends, I usually favor a market-based approach over a statist one, I'm for free trade, I strongly dislike undue interference with the free market such as price controls or non-temporary or corrective subsidies, I've got my issues with affirmative action, and when in doubt, I'd rather refrain from experiments.


I'm not a dumb conservative, though, maybe that's what you're sensing

For a guy with Karl Groucho as an avatar, I'm somewhat surprised.

[Helgoland]

Ooooh, I also have a thing for Communist/Soviet pathos. Pathos is what liberal democracies lack - that's why I like FDR: He provides a great narrative.
And the Groucho version of Marx was just too funny to not use as my avatar.

[XXSockXX]

I know Owlbread is suggesting a Crimean Tatar Republic out of a good-natured idealism (which I respect), but I really don't see how this could be feasible. The Tatars are too small a minority and it's way too late to try to reverse that now.
I also doubt a civic Crimean national identity (that includes the Russians and Ukrainians there) is realistically possible anytime soon and with the current wave of nationalism in the general area, I don't see something like that happening in Crimea at all.

Civic nationalism is a shaky work in progress even in the countries where it is actively tried, often it is civic in name only. It works somewhat better in the colonies than in Europe, but it's still very noticeable how for example the American national identity used to be a WASP thing, or that French civic nationalism is as French as their laizism is Catholic (almost like Turkey where the government likes to pretend ethnic and religious minorities don't exist). German politicians (and I'm sure it's similar in other European countries) have been advocating a civic national identity for decades, but I don't think that has really trickled down into the public consciousness yet.

But what saddens me more: majority of foreigners tend to ignore Russian crimes with that "USA does ad things,  too!" argumentation

Well, there is a lot of latent anti-Americanism in Europe. Also, between the big players (US, China, Russia), Europe is or rather perceives itself as helpless and is thus eager to avoid conflicts.
Similarly the population (at least here in Germany) is upset about violence in [insert African or Middle Eastern country], but doesn't want a military intervention there. If the US stages one, it's jingoistic imperialism and because of the oil. If they don't, it's because they don't care, their diplomacy has failed or because the country has no oil. That's the hypocritical pacifism I mentioned earlier. Maybe I should write a protest song about it, because that's the only proper reaction to anything...

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I don't remember anyone complaining about Russia invading those places. I mean, have you looked at the British Empire? No, what we bitched about was about the massacre/genocide of 1864 in the Caucasus and the deportation of the Tatars in 1944. And the refusal to apologize for it.

Even that is not the main problem. As Loud Whispers said it is rather common to not admit\apologize for a genocide.

Main problem is that we have ongoing atrocities  against civilian population in North Caucasus  and that is OK for Russian commoners. It is to be expected in Crimea....
Current stuff like banned public gatherings and ignored language rights is nothing comparing to what Crimean Tatars may experience in the future
Crimea is very similar to North Caucasus, but local "savages" are untamed. And we know what methods modern Russia uses to solve such problems

[Sergarr]

I don't remember anyone complaining about Russia invading those places. I mean, have you looked at the British Empire? No, what we bitched about was about the massacre/genocide of 1864 in the Caucasus and the deportation of the Tatars in 1944. And the refusal to apologize for it.

Even that is not the main problem. As Loud Whispers said it is rather common to not admit\apologize for a genocide.

Main problem is that we have ongoing atrocities  against civilian population in North Caucasus  and that is OK for Russian commoners. It is to be expected in Crimea....
Current stuff like banned public gatherings and ignored language rights is nothing comparing to what Crimean Tatars may experience in the future
Crimea is very similar to North Caucasus, but local "savages" are untamed. And we know what methods modern Russia uses to solve such problems

>implying that North Caucasus is tamed


EDIT:

too funny

That comic is absolutely hilarious.

[Sheb]

I don't remember anyone complaining about Russia invading those places. I mean, have you looked at the British Empire? No, what we bitched about was about the massacre/genocide of 1864 in the Caucasus and the deportation of the Tatars in 1944. And the refusal to apologize for it.

Even that is not the main problem. As Loud Whispers said it is rather common to not admit\apologize for a genocide.

Well, not that uncommon, at least in Europe. Even Japan did apologize about the comfort woman once.

But my understanding was that if we were discussing Turkey rather than Russia, we would bash them for the same reasons.


Helgoland: Ok, I think we got confused between European and American conservatism. You're more of an authoritarian liberal. :p