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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1771219 times)

TD1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5040 on: May 05, 2014, 10:13:25 am »

So, which way would you go on a Scottish-esque in-out deal?
I'd agree with Scottish independence more if they didn't just want independence from a distant and outsider government only to give away control to an even more distant and even more foreign government. Independence isn't freedom if it isn't free. There are the arguments about who's better off and all that, my biggest hope is that a hypothetical Scottish independence could usher in a revival of North England industry and then we could see some competition between Scotland and the UK... But it'd all be a bit sadder really. Part of the British Isle's charm is that it's always been united against the continent, it'd be interesting to see if that holds up. Again, I also always keep bringing up the matters of security, only highlighted by the Russian jets flying near British airspace, or the Russian bases being built in Argentinia. That is an area in which there is without a doubt the fact that the UK is better off united. In an EU referendum I'd vote out. There's really no purpose to a political union that's supposed to be an economic one that only serves to drain countries of their wealth and move on to more. I'm also particularly wary of the EU's clamping down on the freedom of information, the UK's bad enough at this as is, it doesn't need the EU's help in slaughtering the free flow of information by NORPs, and we certainly don't need even less democratic control over increasingly larger governments.
+1 on every point!
Also, I would add in the harm done to agriculture, and the open borders between countries leading to foreign diseases, for both fauna and flora. Most specifically, the loss of a great many trees recently to one such disease.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5041 on: May 05, 2014, 10:24:12 am »

Also, I would add in the harm done to agriculture, and the open borders between countries leading to foreign diseases, for both fauna and flora. Most specifically, the loss of a great many trees recently to one such disease.
Is that so? I would have thought that free travel did not equate to zero customs and control. Similarly I would have thought that the damage to British agriculture was its success, namely that its techniques improved food yield dramatically but also had the effect of removing clover fields, flower meadows and subsequently the local bee species that improved quality and quantity of crops naturally. I'd reckon it's not the EU's fault, but that it's just Hitler to blame.

TD1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5042 on: May 05, 2014, 10:36:17 am »

Of course, not zero. But it does mean that less can be done to regulate our own borders against diseased plants coming from the EU, as we already have a...prior commitment, as it were.

Historically, I'm sure, but I'd rather have the current running of the countryside be done from home rather than abroad. I'll look into this point more, though; I seem shady on it.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5043 on: May 05, 2014, 10:40:32 am »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27284489
Also here's a better news report on the Civitas report.

scriver

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5044 on: May 05, 2014, 10:50:56 am »

Also, I would add in the harm done to agriculture, and the open borders between countries leading to foreign diseases, for both fauna and flora. Most specifically, the loss of a great many trees recently to one such disease.
Is that so? I would have thought that free travel did not equate to zero customs and control.

It basically does to almost everyone except Britain, ironically. Customs is allowed for smuggling and illegalities of course, but for example, Sweden is not allowed to impose quarantine on imported animals, because it and other health checks "impairs free trade".
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5045 on: May 05, 2014, 10:51:43 am »

I'm a bit strapped for time just now as I'm just checking the forums on a break from important business, but I feel compelled to reply to at least one or two points here:

Quote from: Loud Whispers
I'd agree with Scottish independence more if they didn't just want independence from a distant and outsider government only to give away control to an even more distant and even more foreign government. Independence isn't freedom if it isn't free.

One of the things that enrages me to no end in the independence debate is when people equate our current status as a partly-devolved "region" of a unitary state and full membership of an international organisation as an independent state. They are not one and the same. The EU most emphatically is not a country or a unitary state, it is an international federation of sovereign states.

Becoming an independent country and joining the EU as a full member will not entail "giving away control to an even more distant and foreign government". We may not be able to gain the same opt outs that Westminster currently has but that's nothing compared to being unable to determine your own defence policy, foreign policy or macroeconomic policies. There is no comparison. And in any case, as an independent state the people of Scotland could decide to remain within the EU or leave it. That would be our decision to make - within the UK we will never get that. Instead the population of England who (I have heard) outvote us 11 to 1 will decide the future of our country in the EU referendum that will come soon.

If you ask me, Westminster to me is just as foreign as Belgium. Indeed, the distance between where I live and Stavanger in Norway is roughly the same as the distance between my house and London.

Quote
Again, I also always keep bringing up the matters of security, only highlighted by the Russian jets flying near British airspace, or the Russian bases being built in Argentinia. That is an area in which there is without a doubt the fact that the UK is better off united.

The UK might be "better off united" but Scotland certainly isn't "better off united with the UK".

Scotland has been subject to a terrorist attack in recent years and several more that have been foiled; something that would never have happened if we were not members of the UK and had not been sucked into unnecessary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we had been independent prior to the invasion of Iraq - the 2007 attack on Glasgow airport would never have happened. As things stand right now Scotland has no enemies - the UK in contrast only sees enemies.

If we were independent right now there would be no reason for Russian jets to fly near our airspace, other than if they thought it was a back door to the UK but in that case we wouldn't be under threat. I'm sure we'd have quite an amicable relationship with the Russian Federation anyway post-independence.

So I think on the subject of defence Scotland is actually weakened by leaving its policy in the hands of Westminster; one need only look at the loss of our airbases and garrisons as a result of "downsizing". With independence it wouldn't take the hours and hours it currently takes for the RAF to scramble jets to protect us. Getting rid of the abomination that is the Trident nuclear defence system would be a moral victory in itself.

Quote
Part of the British Isle's charm is that it's always been united against the continent, it'd be interesting to see if that holds up.

I don't see that as "charm" at all. When I look at "the continent" I don't see anyone that I need to stand against, and I certainly wouldn't stand with London. Also, you don't seem to be aware of just how European the Republic of Ireland has become. Despite being further away from Belgium than London is, that country to me feels as European as France or Germany. Scotland will probably end up the same way at some point.

I will deal with the rest when I am finished.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 10:59:38 am by Owlbread »
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TD1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5046 on: May 05, 2014, 11:12:58 am »

Y'know, over time, I'm beginning to think Scotland becoming independent might actually be for the best. For them, obviously. Not the UK. It would suck for the UK.

Then again, for the past number of months, I've only heard one Scot's side of the story- Owlbread. And, as with everyone, he's biased.

So yeah.
Exceedingly so :P

And, because of that bias, I too am beginning to think "Scotland becoming independent might actually be for the best. For them, obviously. Not the UK. It would suck for the UK."
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scriver

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5047 on: May 05, 2014, 11:28:25 am »

Becoming an independent country and joining the EU as a full member will not entail "giving away control to an even more distant and foreign government". We may not be able to gain the same opt outs that Westminster currently has but that's nothing compared to being unable to determine your own defence policy, foreign policy or macroeconomic policies. There is no comparison.

The EU can already fine the shit out of members who don't toe their economic line, and with the new "cooperation" project they came up with in the sale of the Greek Incident the EU will have even more control over the economy of it's members. Likewise, the EU already sports a Foreign Minister of it's own, and creating a "joint army" (and thus defence policy) and making individual countries act as the EU rather than on their own in international politics is on the top of the the agenda for the EU fanatics.
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5048 on: May 05, 2014, 11:35:27 am »

The EU can already fine the shit out of members who don't toe their economic line, and with the new "cooperation" project they came up with in the sale of the Greek Incident the EU will have even more control over the economy of it's members.

But, again, nothing compared to the control that London has over us.

Quote
Likewise, the EU already sports a Foreign Minister of it's own,

I have no problem with this.

Quote
and creating a "joint army" (and thus defence policy)

Scotland would gladly contribute to a "joint army", I am sure - that will not prevent us from running our own defence policy though. If the EU develops its own defence policy that doesn't necessarily have to be at the expense of our independent defence policies.

Quote
and making individual countries act as the EU rather than on their own in international politics is on the top of the the agenda for the EU fanatics.

If the EU fanatics get close to having their dreams realised, Scotland could leave the EU if our people wanted. The UK is far, far more difficult to leave.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5049 on: May 05, 2014, 01:00:25 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Control a country's economy and you control the country. You are giving away control to another government. Norway isn't in the EU, and in any case Westminster is closer to you than Brussels and Frankfurt. I remember back in 2013 the EU wanted the UK to transfer regulation of its banks to EU to once again attempt wider centralization of all its constituent banks. The UK told the EU to shove off. Could Scotland do the same? I'd hope so. The UK referendum is a referendum of all the UK, so I suppose you're stuck with whatever the masses vote for Owlbread. There's just less of you. You might become independent as a country however, and if you do, becoming a full time member of the EU will require Scotland's fulfillment of all its EU obligations that entails. It's just not worth it.
Your defence policy will remain yours for as long as the EU fails to implement the single army it dreams of having, which it works towards building. Your economic policies will remain yours so long as you retain the pound and never become indebted to the EU, otherwise your resistance will be as effective as that of Greece, Italy and Spain. I also find it funny that under the EU Battlegroup wikipage, the country they list as it belonging to is the European Union. More powers are being and will continue to be absorbed by the EU until the importance of state governance is minimal. For all intents and purposes, all nations within the EU are to certain extents already a single state.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Anyone looking to attack Britain will look at England, then immediately look at Ireland and Scotland [and then after that her shipping]. You can either have the protection of the whole British isles or not. There is also the whole thing about honouring all of Britain's alliances (which reduced defence spending have hampered the ability to do so, though the Armed Forces are getting back on their feet soon) as well as Kirchner diplomacy requiring a strong face and aircraft carriers. At least for the next 20 years, that requires that the United Kingdoms are united.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Ah yes, Scotland has no enemies. It definitely would not ever fall afoul of terrorism, much like other Western countries like Sweden or Portugal which... Didn't participate in the Iraq war, and yet still fell afoul of terrorism. It is rather silly to also equate realpolitik with presupposed vengeance, the RN's motto of "Si vis pacem, para bellum" has proven time and time again that it is impossible to predict just how quickly the future can change and change for the worst. Ukraine didn't, it didn't work well.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
...The implications of this mentality disturb me. The Russian Federation is not one you'd want to be friends with, and being a backdoor to the UK would mean it would literally be a brand new weakness in one of Europe's only 2 military powers. Well good for you if you're happy with the rights of others being taken from them I guess. As you can tell, I may not support military intervention in Ukraine, but I do support at the very least preparations and mandatory sabre rattling.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The MOD are currently boasting about the response times of their jets and warships being in the minutes, and again I don't see why you are so keen on destroying the UK's nuclear power when it is the most cost effective and most powerful weapon available. Ukraine without nukes, Ukraine with nukes, which was invaded?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
As it stands now the only militiaristic hostile entity you could say exists in Europe is Russia. Europe itself however, its individual states -  are competitors. That's when Europe thrives. So you are happy about countries losing their national identity and embracing 'europeness,' honestly I'm not and this sort of thinking is what's allowing the far right to rise. Golden Dawn and the Front National are just a snapshot at what the EU's mismanagings could cause to rise, and in a Europe this unstable who honestly knows what could happen next. If you don't prepare for the worst and the worst happens, it's your fault. It's not surprising at all that the stronger pushes for Europeness over nations has just led to a rise in nationalism.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Only so far as prestige and hard power is to be concerned. As far as soft power goes, London will continue absorbing money and culture and nothing much else will change, except border control I guess. Hadrian's wall will be rebuilt and covered in stinging nettles, whilst Putin's ships frollick around the North Sea unchallenged by all except the UK's mighty new science vessel, which will analyse them with science and not much else I guess. Flags might change too. Hundreds of billions of pounds worth of assets have poured their way into England already due to the uncertainty inherent in the stability of Scotland's economy, so the UK is going to be fine. I didn't know this until quite recently, but 9 out of 10 customers of Scottish banks are southerners. They're probably the reason why Scottish companies and Scottish assets are flooding south come the independence vote. In addition the LibLabCon are all against the idea of an Indie Scotland having the pound (no idea about UKIP) so there's little luck there either.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5050 on: May 05, 2014, 01:06:12 pm »

And just a last bit on the UK "only seeing enemies." The commonwealth of nations is in my opinion incredibly underused and is an example of an international organisations of states that I think the EU should more try to emulate. It's just a bunch of countries trying to improve ties and trades with one another whilst expelling dictators and all that. UK's got friends extending well beyond what the EU's given, even taking into account that most EU states were already on good terms with the UK before the EU.

Graknorke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5051 on: May 05, 2014, 01:16:13 pm »

Y'know, over time, I'm beginning to think Scotland becoming independent might actually be for the best. For them, obviously. Not the UK. It would suck for the UK.
Everyone already knew that. That's where the conflict of interests arises.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5052 on: May 05, 2014, 01:26:22 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Control a country's economy and you control the country. You are giving away control to another government. Norway isn't in the EU, and in any case Westminster is closer to you than Brussels and Frankfurt. I remember back in 2013 the EU wanted the UK to transfer regulation of its banks to EU to once again attempt wider centralization of all its constituent banks. The UK told the EU to shove off. Could Scotland do the same? I'd hope so. The UK referendum is a referendum of all the UK, so I suppose you're stuck with whatever the masses vote for Owlbread. There's just less of you. You might become independent as a country however, and if you do, becoming a full time member of the EU will require Scotland's fulfillment of all its EU obligations that entails. It's just not worth it.
Your defence policy will remain yours for as long as the EU fails to implement the single army it dreams of having, which it works towards building. Your economic policies will remain yours so long as you retain the pound and never become indebted to the EU, otherwise your resistance will be as effective as that of Greece, Italy and Spain. I also find it funny that under the EU Battlegroup wikipage, the country they list as it belonging to is the European Union. More powers are being and will continue to be absorbed by the EU until the importance of state governance is minimal. For all intents and purposes, all nations within the EU are to certain extents already a single state.
For most points and purposes, the EU works with an unanimous consensus. So, really Scotland, or even Luxembourg, can always tell the EU to shove off. They might not like it, but de iure they can not do a thing about it. In practice however, each EU member has agreed with each EU program, and the members representatives were elected to the people, so you can't complain about.

Anyway, if a nation is a deeply indebted as Greece, Italy or Spain, the fact that they're in the EU doesn't have an effect on their economic policy. It just gives them an easy scapegoat, and in case of Greece, the money to avoid a complete bankruptcy. It's not like these laws suddenly appeared from nowhere, they were signed many years ago by all involved, and some nations (Greece) deliberately faked their budgetary statistics in order to get into the EU.

Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Anyone looking to attack Britain will look at England, then immediately look at Ireland and Scotland [and then after that her shipping]. You can either have the protection of the whole British isles or not. There is also the whole thing about honouring all of Britain's alliances (which reduced defence spending have hampered the ability to do so, though the Armed Forces are getting back on their feet soon) as well as Kirchner diplomacy requiring a strong face and aircraft carriers. At least for the next 20 years, that requires that the United Kingdoms are united.
In both cases, still not Scotands problem. Besides, there's always NATO, and the EU army is there for a reason. I mean, EU army integration is supposedly bad, despite being completely voluntary, while UK army integration is good and needed.

Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Ah yes, Scotland has no enemies. It definitely would not ever fall afoul of terrorism, much like other Western countries like Sweden or Portugal which... Didn't participate in the Iraq war, and yet still fell afoul of terrorism. It is rather silly to also equate realpolitik with presupposed vengeance, the RN's motto of "Si vis pacem, para bellum" has proven time and time again that it is impossible to predict just how quickly the future can change and change for the worst. Ukraine didn't, it didn't work well.
There's always NATO, and the EU army. It's not like a disjointed Scotland would be completely on it's own. Again, somehow the (voluntary) EU integration is bad, but the mandatory UK integration is good.

Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
...The implications of this mentality disturb me. The Russian Federation is not one you'd want to be friends with, and being a backdoor to the UK would mean it would literally be a brand new weakness in one of Europe's only 2 military powers. Well good for you if you're happy with the rights of others being taken from them I guess. As you can tell, I may not support military intervention in Ukraine, but I do support at the very least preparations and mandatory sabre rattling.
There's always NATO, and the EU army. It's not like a disjointed Scotland would be completely on it's own. Again, somehow the (voluntary) EU integration is bad, but the mandatory UK integration is good.

Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The MOD are currently boasting about the response times of their jets and warships being in the minutes, and again I don't see why you are so keen on destroying the UK's nuclear power when it is the most cost effective and most powerful weapon available. Ukraine without nukes, Ukraine with nukes, which was invaded?
Your sample size is insufficient to draw a conclusion. After all, more nations without nukes were not invaded than nations with nukes. Anyway, there's always NATO, and the EU army. It's not like a disjointed Scotland would be completely on it's own. Again, somehow the (voluntary) EU integration is bad, but the mandatory UK integration is good.

Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
As it stands now the only militiaristic hostile entity you could say exists in Europe is Russia. Europe itself however, its individual states -  are competitors. That's when Europe thrives. So you are happy about countries losing their national identity and embracing 'europeness,' honestly I'm not and this sort of thinking is what's allowing the far right to rise. Golden Dawn and the Front National are just a snapshot at what the EU's mismanagings could cause to rise, and in a Europe this unstable who honestly knows what could happen next. If you don't prepare for the worst and the worst happens, it's your fault. It's not surprising at all that the stronger pushes for Europeness over nations has just led to a rise in nationalism.
Your sample size is inadequate, the rise in nationalism is only a temporary phenomenon, from 2010. Before, it was in a bit of a decline, and it's in 2008/2009 that the last great European treaty was signed. And anyway, Europe is not unstable. Greece was going to go bankrupt, the Union was going to fall apart, and the Euro would disappear. The Euro is still here, the Union stronger than ever, and Greece has seen very hard times, but will be able to avoid a default.

The nationalism is merely a result of greater immigration due to the problems in the Middle East, and the economic crisis.

Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Only so far as prestige and hard power is to be concerned. As far as soft power goes, London will continue absorbing money and culture and nothing much else will change, except border control I guess. Hadrian's wall will be rebuilt and covered in stinging nettles, whilst Putin's ships frollick around the North Sea unchallenged by all except the UK's mighty new science vessel, which will analyse them with science and not much else I guess. Flags might change too. Hundreds of billions of pounds worth of assets have poured their way into England already due to the uncertainty inherent in the stability of Scotland's economy, so the UK is going to be fine. I didn't know this until quite recently, but 9 out of 10 customers of Scottish banks are southerners. They're probably the reason why Scottish companies and Scottish assets are flooding south come the independence vote. In addition the LibLabCon are all against the idea of an Indie Scotland having the pound (no idea about UKIP) so there's little luck there either.
[/quote]
Independence would not happen from today to tomorrow, it's merely a treaty preparing for an eventual separation. Economic matters would be settled, and since the UK is not going to leave the EUFTA (even if they leave the EU, trade relations with the rest of the EU are to important) the economic matters will not be problematic.

And anyway, it's not like the UK can do anything about Scotland using the Pound.
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5053 on: May 05, 2014, 03:35:24 pm »

Spoiler: Enormous post (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 01:32:32 am by Owlbread »
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misko27

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5054 on: May 05, 2014, 10:43:43 pm »

Spoilers people. You specifically Owlbread.
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