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[10ebbor10]

They're still sounded for prayer sometimes. If no hour is being sounded, nothing special going on, and nobody messed with the buttons, it's an announcement of the mass.

But yeah, tradition vs Xenofobia.

[palsch]

I can confirm that my local church will ring their call to service for the 9:30 tomorrow morning. They do have the sense not to ring in the 8AM service.

They also have a monthly peal attempt. That's three and a half-ish hours of ringing, or until they fuck up. I'm pretty sure that three hours of constant ringing that can be heard literally all over town would violate most of the noise restrictions people try to bring against the Islamic call to prayer.


But more telling here is the way that Islamic practices have "no part in British national identity". I'm pretty sure there are a couple million (are we at 3M yet?) British Muslims who would take issue with that. Especially given Muslims are more likely to identify as British and proud than Christians.

[Loud Whispers]

They're still sounded for prayer sometimes. If no hour is being sounded, nothing special going on, and nobody messed with the buttons, it's an announcement of the mass.

But yeah, tradition vs Xenofobia.

It's not xenophobia, it's preserving the native culture. Xenophobia would be attacking foreigners like what is had in Egypt, Israel or Malaysia. When you take a foreign culture and bring it to any other country where it distinguishes itself, you are not being multicultural - you are displacing the native culture and replacing it with the foreign culture. And when those cultures are at odds with each other, they will clash and more will be lost.
On the topic of bells, they are even at secular state owned buildings that represent the country - because the bells represent the country, and the bells do not discriminate. The Muslim call to prayer is clearly only for Muslims, and is more fit to be in Muslim countries.
Tradition and culture do not imply one another unless it is a traditional culture. Islamic societies are thoroughly traditional, and I honestly don't think anyone who's ever lived in an Islamic country would advocate for it unless they were Muslim. In Malaysia, there are sign in every retailer that alcohol cannot be sold to Muslims, Art and Music are censored, Apostates face awful treatment, muslim women get lynched for not wearing a burqa, honour killings are still practiced, gay rights are a joke [how many lashes do you want?] and this is all at odds with British culture.

But more telling here is the way that Islamic practices have "no part in British national identity". I'm pretty sure there are a couple million (are we at 3M yet?) British Muslims who would take issue with that. Especially given Muslims are more likely to identify as British and proud than Christians.

Yeah, and there are 3.6 million gay folks in the UK, and that means British culture is about being gay instead of simply being progressive.
Islamic practices have no part in British identity, because being British has nothing to do with being Muslim, or even Christian or any ethnicity for that matter, especially if Owlbread's theory is true. It's its own already pre-existing culture.

[10ebbor10]

Link
Don't do generalizations. Just don't. Also don't turn things around. Many Middle Eastern traditional societies are Islamic, often fundamentally so. The Islam does not cause traditionalism, but both together are often a bad thing, especially when they feel threatened by forced modernization. Something which is true for pretty much any "traditional" nation.

Many atrocities have been committed in name of just about any ideology, safe for those that haven't ever been tried.

And preserving native culture by rejecting "foreign" influences is Xenophobia. It might not be as bad as actually attacking people, but that doesn't justify it. As for antimulticulturalism, the native culture defends itself far more vehemently than the new "culture" attacks. As a Christian, I can freely walk into most Mosques (providing I obey basic rules). We had tea. Pretty certain I can do it while wearing religious symbols. As a muslim, you can barely walk around on the street in certain areas. Multiculturalism has to come from both sides.

Edit: If you want more Christian Symbols in today's society, just look at the date. 6/23/2013 AD. Anno domini=> Year of the lord (nevermind the fact that Jezus was probably born is 6 BC)

[Owlbread]

UKIP lost their deposit in the Aberdeen Donside by-election. Otto Inglis was the UKIP candidate Nigel Farage came up to Scotland to promote. He got 4% of the vote. SNP kept their seat but lost about 5000 votes to Labour (about a 9% swing I think) - considering Labour, the Tories and the rest of the opposition threw everything they had at this election campaign, and considering this is in the middle of an extremely divisive independence campaign - that's a pretty good result.

Refer to the BBC.

Labour are trying to drum this up as much as they can as a victory, despite the fact that way back in 1994 in the Monklands East by-election when Labour's majority of 16,000 votes dropped to 1000 with a 20% swing to the SNP they hailed it as a "great victory for Labour".

[Loud Whispers]

Link
Don't do generalizations. Just don't.

Many atrocities have been committed in name of just about any ideology, safe for those that haven't ever been tried.

Where did I make generalizations? Why do other bad ideologies justify replacing a native country's culture? Why would it excuse the moral wrongs condoned by Islam in Muslim countries?

And preserving native culture by rejecting "foreign" influences is Xenophobia. It might not be as bad as actually attacking people, but that doesn't justify it. As for antimulticulturalism, the native culture defends itself far more valiantly than the new "culture" attacks. As a Christian, I can freely walk into most Mosques (providing I obey basic rules). Pretty certain I can do it while wearing religious symbols. As a muslim, you can barely walk around on the street.

What utter crap. If straight people don't sleep with the same sex that doesn't make them homophobic, it is nowhere even close to going out and attacking people. You are 281% more likely to be subjected to hate crimes on the basis of sexual orientation sadly, and over 2100% more likely to be victim to hate crimes on the basis of race. This is depressing as fuck, but also shows just how well-exaggerated the persecution of Muslims is.^{^} Asians are 200% more likely to be stabbed than white British people and clear ethnic communities have formed which end up in conflict with each other.
Just under 40% of Muslims in a survey said they supported Sharia law, nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-olds believed that those converting to another religion should be executed and this part is just abhorrent:
"The survey claimed that British authorities and some Muslim groups have exaggerated the problem of Islamophobia and fuelled a sense of victimhood among some Muslims: 84% said they believed they had been well treated in British society, though only 28% thought the authorities had gone over the top in trying not to offend Muslims. Munira Mirza, a doctoral student at Kent University who wrote the report, said: "The government should engage with Muslims as citizens, not through their religious identity.""
You create a separate culture instead of living under one culture with many diverse individuals. Then you point at the growing time bomb and say 'what a success!'
And the original culture itself is dying, with many of today's young flocking instead to other culture centers which are given ample funding or simply not learning anything about British culture at all; it's depressing as an immigrant to speak better English than the English.

[kingfisher1112]

Link
Don't do generalizations. Just don't.

Many atrocities have been committed in name of just about any ideology, safe for those that haven't ever been tried.

Where did I make generalizations? Why do other bad ideologies justify replacing a native country's culture? Why would it excuse the moral wrongs condoned by Islam in Muslim countries?

And preserving native culture by rejecting "foreign" influences is Xenophobia. It might not be as bad as actually attacking people, but that doesn't justify it. As for antimulticulturalism, the native culture defends itself far more valiantly than the new "culture" attacks. As a Christian, I can freely walk into most Mosques (providing I obey basic rules). Pretty certain I can do it while wearing religious symbols. As a muslim, you can barely walk around on the street.

What utter crap. If straight people don't sleep with the same sex that doesn't make them homophobic, it is nowhere even close to going out and attacking people. You are 281% more likely to be subjected to hate crimes on the basis of sexual orientation sadly, and over 2100% more likely to be victim to hate crimes on the basis of race. This is depressing as fuck, but also shows just how well-exaggerated the persecution of Muslims is.^{^} Asians are 200% more likely to be stabbed than white British people and clear ethnic communities have formed which end up in conflict with each other.
Just under 40% of Muslims in a survey said they supported Sharia law, nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-olds believed that those converting to another religion should be executed and this part is just abhorrent:
"The survey claimed that British authorities and some Muslim groups have exaggerated the problem of Islamophobia and fuelled a sense of victimhood among some Muslims: 84% said they believed they had been well treated in British society, though only 28% thought the authorities had gone over the top in trying not to offend Muslims. Munira Mirza, a doctoral student at Kent University who wrote the report, said: "The government should engage with Muslims as citizens, not through their religious identity.""
You create a separate culture instead of living under one culture with many diverse individuals. Then you point at the growing time bomb and say 'what a success!'
And the original culture itself is dying, with many of today's young flocking instead to other culture centers which are given ample funding or simply not learning anything about British culture at all; it's depressing as an immigrant to speak better English than the English.

Just saying: This guy has it right. Muslims all around the world are campaigning for Shaira law and special rights. They have manufactured a huge victim complex, and with exagerrated terrorism reports on the news they can make themselves much more victimised. Multiculturalism is being done wrong all around the world. How people think it should be done is having many cultures inside the one country, while it should be one culture with many diverse influences. Otherwise you just get ethnicity blocks and hatred.

[Loud Whispers]

Just saying: This guy has it right. Muslims all around the world are campaigning for Shaira law and special rights. They have manufactured a huge victim complex, and with exagerrated terrorism reports on the news they can make themselves much more victimised.

I'm just going out and straight up saying I think you're wrong here on a few points. Just look at Al Jazeera, who are in the top 5 News broadcasters who are the most impartial and least censored, especially in the Arab world. They don't feed into this narrative, and they do indeed attack it. Often you will find the news corporations feeding this victim complex are owned by the same executives that feed the terrorist one.^{1 2}
And even then, they're only doing it because on the societal level a market has been created for this kind of 'news.'
Also it's some Muslims, in Muslim cultures. Even in the survey it was clear that the immigrants were mostly in favour of British law, and it was the young adults who grew up in the Muslim communities who adopted the fundamentalist stance.

*EDIT
“We have allowed tribal culture to colonise the faith of Islam. It’s the behaviour of Muslims that defines, in every generation, what Islam is.” Replace Islam with Britain and Muslims with citizens, and you have a good quote that sums up everything wrong with what's being passed off as multicultralism in Britain - except even worse as it's not even done under one tribe.

[kingfisher1112]

Just saying: This guy has it right. Muslims all around the world are campaigning for Shaira law and special rights. They have manufactured a huge victim complex, and with exagerrated terrorism reports on the news they can make themselves much more victimised.

I'm just going out and straight up saying I think you're wrong here on a few points. Just look at Al Jazeera, who are in the top 5 News broadcasters who are the most impartial and least censored, especially in the Arab world. They don't feed into this narrative, and they do indeed attack it. Often you will find the news corporations feeding this victim complex are owned by the same executives that feed the terrorist one.^{1 2}
And even then, they're only doing it because on the societal level a market has been created for this kind of 'news.'
Also it's some Muslims, in Muslim cultures. Even in the survey it was clear that the immigrants were mostly in favour of British law, and it was the young adults who grew up in the Muslim communities who adopted the fundamentalist stance.

*EDIT
“We have allowed tribal culture to colonise the faith of Islam. It’s the behaviour of Muslims that defines, in every generation, what Islam is.” Replace Islam with Britain and Muslims with citizens, and you have a good quote that sums up everything wrong with what's being passed off as multicultralism in Britain - except even worse as it's not even done under one tribe.

Oh yes, Al Jazeera. Possibly one of the least biased news stations out there. I concede to you there.

[DWC]

Link
Don't do generalizations. Just don't.

Many atrocities have been committed in name of just about any ideology, safe for those that haven't ever been tried.

Where did I make generalizations? Why do other bad ideologies justify replacing a native country's culture? Why would it excuse the moral wrongs condoned by Islam in Muslim countries?

And preserving native culture by rejecting "foreign" influences is Xenophobia. It might not be as bad as actually attacking people, but that doesn't justify it. As for antimulticulturalism, the native culture defends itself far more valiantly than the new "culture" attacks. As a Christian, I can freely walk into most Mosques (providing I obey basic rules). Pretty certain I can do it while wearing religious symbols. As a muslim, you can barely walk around on the street.

What utter crap. If straight people don't sleep with the same sex that doesn't make them homophobic, it is nowhere even close to going out and attacking people. You are 281% more likely to be subjected to hate crimes on the basis of sexual orientation sadly, and over 2100% more likely to be victim to hate crimes on the basis of race. This is depressing as fuck, but also shows just how well-exaggerated the persecution of Muslims is.^{^} Asians are 200% more likely to be stabbed than white British people and clear ethnic communities have formed which end up in conflict with each other.
Just under 40% of Muslims in a survey said they supported Sharia law, nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-olds believed that those converting to another religion should be executed and this part is just abhorrent:
"The survey claimed that British authorities and some Muslim groups have exaggerated the problem of Islamophobia and fuelled a sense of victimhood among some Muslims: 84% said they believed they had been well treated in British society, though only 28% thought the authorities had gone over the top in trying not to offend Muslims. Munira Mirza, a doctoral student at Kent University who wrote the report, said: "The government should engage with Muslims as citizens, not through their religious identity.""
You create a separate culture instead of living under one culture with many diverse individuals. Then you point at the growing time bomb and say 'what a success!'
And the original culture itself is dying, with many of today's young flocking instead to other culture centers which are given ample funding or simply not learning anything about British culture at all; it's depressing as an immigrant to speak better English than the English.

Just saying: This guy has it right. Muslims all around the world are campaigning for Shaira law and special rights. They have manufactured a huge victim complex, and with exagerrated terrorism reports on the news they can make themselves much more victimised. Multiculturalism is being done wrong all around the world. How people think it should be done is having many cultures inside the one country, while it should be one culture with many diverse influences. Otherwise you just get ethnicity blocks and hatred.

I agree with all this as well. What was ever the point of these multiculturalism schemes anyways? They 'imported' refugees and other people from the most backwards places on earth into a homogenous (but tolerant) society and what did they expect to happen?

But Al Jazeera is relevantly unbiased. They get this reputation in the west because they will interview any insane radical war criminal tyrant guy on the planet and give them air time while everyone else will refuse. They also practice almost no self-censorship. They are slanted in that they are aimed at the Arab demographic, but they are not very biased.

[MonkeyHead]

Regarding second generation immigrant fundamentalists. I have run into this on several occasions. As far as I can make out, the process goes a little like this:

 The parents, wanting a better life, move from a country where personal freedoms etc. are not so great, and immigrate to the US/EU/wheresoever, and make an effort to integrate into thier chosen country, appreciating the improved QoL. They have kids, and instill an idea in them that they are Pakistani/Iraqi/Egyptian/whatever. The child grows up with a label given to them that makes them different (going through school being a minority must be tough, as schoolkids are not exactly accepting of differences at the best of times), and they self identify as this label rather than as an Arabic American or British Muslim and so on. They become resentful to thier nation of birth through having been told that they are something else seperate from it, and the rose tinted specacles kick in for the homeland. An individual may begin to adopt the behavioural traits or values of thier place of familial origin based on what they see, hear or are otherwise exposed to by others in a similar situation, having never truly experienced whatever problems thier parents did, taking advantage of the lovley freedoms they have in thier place of birth that they would never have in thier place of familial origin, and it is the negative ones that people begin to notice - opression of women, say, rather than giving up alcohol. As already mentioned, should thier place of residence have an apathy towards thier ancestral home, it probably will foster futher negativity. In an extreme case, I know of an individual who was sent to relatives back in his country of origin by his parents in an effort to illustrate to him the beneifts of being in the UK. Whilst he retured having apparently hated the experience of living his ancestral lands, he also came back far more radical and extreme in his voiced opinions regarding how things here in the UK should be changed via Jihad, probably enforced by living to cultural standards he had chosen to hold highly. The individual in question moved to Dubai, to get the best of both worlds - an Islamic society without quite as much of the rampant poverty, corruption and opression as tribal Pakistan.

[Scoops Novel]

Link
Don't do generalizations. Just don't.

Many atrocities have been committed in name of just about any ideology, safe for those that haven't ever been tried.

Where did I make generalizations? Why do other bad ideologies justify replacing a native country's culture? Why would it excuse the moral wrongs condoned by Islam in Muslim countries?

And preserving native culture by rejecting "foreign" influences is Xenophobia. It might not be as bad as actually attacking people, but that doesn't justify it. As for antimulticulturalism, the native culture defends itself far more valiantly than the new "culture" attacks. As a Christian, I can freely walk into most Mosques (providing I obey basic rules). Pretty certain I can do it while wearing religious symbols. As a muslim, you can barely walk around on the street.

What utter crap. If straight people don't sleep with the same sex that doesn't make them homophobic, it is nowhere even close to going out and attacking people. You are 281% more likely to be subjected to hate crimes on the basis of sexual orientation sadly, and over 2100% more likely to be victim to hate crimes on the basis of race. This is depressing as fuck, but also shows just how well-exaggerated the persecution of Muslims is.^{^} Asians are 200% more likely to be stabbed than white British people and clear ethnic communities have formed which end up in conflict with each other.
Just under 40% of Muslims in a survey said they supported Sharia law, nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-olds believed that those converting to another religion should be executed and this part is just abhorrent:
"The survey claimed that British authorities and some Muslim groups have exaggerated the problem of Islamophobia and fuelled a sense of victimhood among some Muslims: 84% said they believed they had been well treated in British society, though only 28% thought the authorities had gone over the top in trying not to offend Muslims. Munira Mirza, a doctoral student at Kent University who wrote the report, said: "The government should engage with Muslims as citizens, not through their religious identity.""
You create a separate culture instead of living under one culture with many diverse individuals. Then you point at the growing time bomb and say 'what a success!'
And the original culture itself is dying, with many of today's young flocking instead to other culture centers which are given ample funding or simply not learning anything about British culture at all; it's depressing as an immigrant to speak better English than the English.

Loud whispers, i get ever so slight a feeling that you'd have to be a complete idiot to answer in a radical way to a poll like this in the west as a Muslim, and as such I'm a little doubtful. Why a culture that apparently doesn't have staying power, with the majority being a part of it no less, needs to be artificially preserved i don't know. I'll bump my own theory shall i?

In Britain, from what I've observed cultural meshing works to the extent that I'm surprised, and probably a negative outlier. There's clustering in the cities as usual, but without looking at the figures, It appears to be becoming more common in the country from my own experience. I do wonder about how those growing up with our rhetoric will find the west's apathy/approach to the chunk of the world they hail from, and i think that may be more important then "culture".

[Loud Whispers]

Loud whispers, i get ever so slight a feeling that you'd have to be a complete idiot to answer in a radical way to a poll like this in the west as a Muslim, and as such I'm a little doubtful. Why a culture that apparently doesn't have staying power, with the majority being a part of it no less, needs to be artificially preserved i don't know. I'll bump my own theory shall i?

Why have you bolded that in particular? That part's just quoted from the survey. Which part is idiotic to you, and why? What constitutes artificial preservation, and why is it negative? Culture as it stands is a monument to human development in arts, science and society that reflects on every nation and belongs to everyone within that nation. It manifests into ways of thinking and shapes the way people behave around each other, I don't see why teaching British culture in Britain should not be supported because other cultures like Islam are capable of providing a stronger culture more resistant to change and degradation.

In Britain, from what I've observed cultural meshing works to the extent that I'm surprised, and probably a negative outlier. There's clustering in the cities as usual, but without looking at the figures, It appears to be becoming more common in the country from my own experience. I do wonder about how those growing up with our rhetoric will find the west's apathy/approach to the chunk of the world they hail from, and i think that may be more important then "culture".

It's mainly in the cities, where white British people are in the minority, whereas more rural areas like in Wales ethnic groups are much rarer. I do think your culture is far more important than the country you were born in or the colour of your skin, and I honestly think that if the next generation go back to viewing people as ethnic identities instead of individuals, we'll have gone backwards as a society.

[Scoops Novel]

Loud whispers, i get ever so slight a feeling that you'd have to be a complete idiot to answer in a radical way to a poll like this in the west as a Muslim, and as such I'm a little doubtful. Why a culture that apparently doesn't have staying power, with the majority being a part of it no less, needs to be artificially preserved i don't know. I'll bump my own theory shall i?

Why have you bolded that in particular? That part's just quoted from the survey. Which part is idiotic to you, and why? What constitutes artificial preservation, and why is it negative? Culture as it stands is a monument to human development in arts, science and society that reflects on every nation and belongs to everyone within that nation. It manifests into ways of thinking and shapes the way people behave around each other, I don't see why teaching British culture in Britain should not be supported because other cultures like Islam are capable of providing a stronger culture more resistant to change and degradation.

In Britain, from what I've observed cultural meshing works to the extent that I'm surprised, and probably a negative outlier. There's clustering in the cities as usual, but without looking at the figures, It appears to be becoming more common in the country from my own experience. I do wonder about how those growing up with our rhetoric will find the west's apathy/approach to the chunk of the world they hail from, and i think that may be more important then "culture".

It's mainly in the cities, where white British people are in the minority, whereas more rural areas like in Wales ethnic groups are much rarer. I do think your culture is far more important than the country you were born in or the colour of your skin, and I honestly think that if the next generation go back to viewing people as ethnic identities instead of individuals, we'll have gone backwards as a society.

It reminds me of PRISM, Loud Whispers. We agree that leaking it wasn't a security threat because everyone thought it was happening already, and if you answered such a poll in an extremist fashion fairly few muslims are going to think this will be consequence free. We're not going to get away from ethnic identities any time soon, as this is a case of family ties. Take the Woolwich killing. The two bits i remember are "overthrow your governments, they don't care about you", and something on the lines of his people dying and suffering. It's not always a case of racial hatred, though it can arise, it's fairly easy to realize such conditions have arisen with all dominant civilizations, but unfortunately when you play up the equality rhetoric as is necessary in today's world people will expect you to live up to it.

As for the culture, i haven't yet noticed any great degradation. I wouldn't say Islamic culture is growing stronger here, at any rate. Culture should be allowed to change, and while i could get into all the reasons it should be kept, preserved and remembered the point still stands.

[Loud Whispers]

It reminds me of PRISM, Loud Whispers. We agree that it wasn't a security threat because everyone thought it was happening already

I disagree with you on a next level of disagreement.

and if you answered such a poll in an extremist fashion fairly few muslims are going to think this will be consequence free.

I was quoting the poll, how is quoting the poll extremist? You're not being terribly clear. Can you please clarify?

We're not going to get away from ethnic identities any time soon, as this is a case of family ties. Take the Woolwich killing. The two bits i remember are "overthrow your governments, they don't care about you", and something on the lines of his people dying and suffering. It's not always a case of racial hatred, though it can arise, it's fairly easy to realize such conditions have arisen with all dominant civilizations, but unfortunately when you play up the equality rhetoric as is necessary in today's world people will expect you to live up to it.

Ok, let's look at his declared motivation for murdering Lee:
"The only reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers.
"And this British soldier is one. It is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
"By Allah, we swear by the almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone.
"So what if we want to live by the Sharia in Muslim lands? Why does that mean you must follow us and chase us and call us extremists and kill us?
If you are trying to say this was ethnically motivated, you'd be wrong. Both suspects were British Nigerians and born into Christian families, both grew up in Muslim communities and both tried justifying their murderous act with the plight of Afghan Muslims. It was very much a visible symptom of the conflicts being brewed by these segregated cultures enabling a second generation of people who have better attached themselves to their foreign cultural identity instead of their native one, and view their native culture with no esteem.

As for the culture, i haven't yet noticed any great degradation. I wouldn't say Islamic culture is growing stronger here, at any rate. Culture should be allowed to change, and while i could get into all the reasons it should be kept, preserved and remembered the point still stands.

You haven't explained your point at all, I would greatly appreciate it if you could bring up some of those reasons as to why no efforts should be made to preserve any culture or why the opposite should happen - you may know things I do not. The culture isn't changing, it's disappearing.