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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 832384 times)

RedKing

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6195 on: March 21, 2014, 02:24:21 am »

I'll play Devil's advocate here and say that the Confederacy and the Civil War were a LOT more complicated than just rich Deep South planters tricking dumb hillbillies into fighting to protect their right to own slaves.

While this is probably mostly true for states like South Carolina, Alabama and Georgia, you have to remember that there were a lot more states that joined the Confederacy which weren't so sanguine about the issue of slavery, North Carolina being a prime example. The governor of NC, John Ellis, and a majority of the state legislature, did NOT favor secession and attempted to broker a peace conference to end the standoff over Fort Sumter. However, when Lincoln ordered North Carolina to provide several thousand troops to enforce martial law on South Carolina, Gov. Ellis refused and the state began deliberating secession.

To that extent, the last four to join (Virginia, North Carolina, Arkansas and Tennessee) joined the Confederacy not so much to defend slavery but as a rejection of heavy-handed Federal power that (as they saw it) would set Southern cousins against each other to fulfill Northern "radical" aims that the South in general saw as a major economic blow to them. I do think this is an aspect that goes too much unexamined in all the praises of Lincoln's Presidency -- if he had tried a more diplomatic tack to dealing with the secession of the Deep South, then the Upper South states with their considerable manpower and military leadership would have been kept on the sidelines. Virginia, North Carolina and Tennessee were 3 of the 4 largest contributors to the Confederate Army (Georgia being the 3rd largest).

This has all been on my mind a fair bit lately, as I've been taking my kids to the history museum and starting to explain the Civil War (and the American Revolution) to my 7-year old. It's a complicated topic, and doubly so when one's own family fought and died on both sides, and yet never held any slaves or servants.
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Aqizzar

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6196 on: March 21, 2014, 08:44:56 am »

Quote
The question recurs, what will satisfy them? Simply this: We must not only let them alone, but we must somehow, convince them that we do let them alone. This, we know by experience, is no easy task. We have been so trying to convince them from the very beginning of our organization, but with no success. In all our platforms and speeches we have constantly protested our purpose to let them alone; but this has had no tendency to convince them. Alike unavailing to convince them, is the fact that they have never detected a man of us in any attempt to disturb them.

These natural, and apparently adequate means all failing, what will convince them? This, and this only: cease to call slavery wrong, and join them in calling it right. And this must be done thoroughly - done in acts as well as in words. Silence will not be tolerated - we must place ourselves avowedly with them. Senator Douglas' new sedition law must be enacted and enforced, suppressing all declarations that slavery is wrong, whether made in politics, in presses, in pulpits, or in private. We must arrest and return their fugitive slaves with greedy pleasure. We must pull down our Free State constitutions. The whole atmosphere must be disinfected from all taint of opposition to slavery, before they will cease to believe that all their troubles proceed from us.

It never ceases to amaze me how you could take almost contemporary account of the South's grievance against the rest of the country, replace slavery and abolition with any other popular argument, and still have a perfect summation of politics in the American South right up through the present day.  Replace it with government-run health care or gay marriage, and only the wacky vernacular would make it stick out.

Coincidentally, Jon Stewart recently interviewed former judge and legal authority Andrew Napolitano about this exactly this kind of argument, after a guy famous for saying stuff like 'the cause of liberty is always worth fighting for' started calling the Lincoln the worst President ever for not finding a way to free the slaves without fighting a war.  Makes a nice example of how embarrassingly easy such an argument is to dismantle even when made by an intelligent man.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6197 on: March 21, 2014, 10:20:34 am »

I'll play Devil's advocate here and say that the Confederacy and the Civil War were a LOT more complicated than just rich Deep South planters tricking dumb hillbillies into fighting to protect their right to own slaves.

While this is probably mostly true for states like South Carolina, Alabama and Georgia, you have to remember that there were a lot more states that joined the Confederacy which weren't so sanguine about the issue of slavery, North Carolina being a prime example. The governor of NC, John Ellis, and a majority of the state legislature, did NOT favor secession and attempted to broker a peace conference to end the standoff over Fort Sumter. However, when Lincoln ordered North Carolina to provide several thousand troops to enforce martial law on South Carolina, Gov. Ellis refused and the state began deliberating secession.

To that extent, the last four to join (Virginia, North Carolina, Arkansas and Tennessee) joined the Confederacy not so much to defend slavery but as a rejection of heavy-handed Federal power that (as they saw it) would set Southern cousins against each other to fulfill Northern "radical" aims that the South in general saw as a major economic blow to them. I do think this is an aspect that goes too much unexamined in all the praises of Lincoln's Presidency -- if he had tried a more diplomatic tack to dealing with the secession of the Deep South, then the Upper South states with their considerable manpower and military leadership would have been kept on the sidelines. Virginia, North Carolina and Tennessee were 3 of the 4 largest contributors to the Confederate Army (Georgia being the 3rd largest).

This has all been on my mind a fair bit lately, as I've been taking my kids to the history museum and starting to explain the Civil War (and the American Revolution) to my 7-year old. It's a complicated topic, and doubly so when one's own family fought and died on both sides, and yet never held any slaves or servants.

I'll add that a huge factor (well, a large one, at any rate) in the decision to secede was America's high import tariffs. These were great for the North, because they protected its budding industries from cheaper imported European goods, but the South had little industry to speak of and was paying for lots of imported goods with its agricultural products. The tariffs caused nothing but grievances in the South, and were in fact the main cause of bickering in 1832 when very similar concerns about states' rights and the extent of federal power were being debated.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 10:22:15 am by FearfulJesuit »
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Culise

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6198 on: March 21, 2014, 10:49:50 am »

Not really, I think.  Tariffs had steadily dropped since 1832, and while they were far from insignificant (~15%, give or take based on the specific products), they were far from huge, or even large.  If they had been, the West would have joined the South in secession; the small-homestead populations of the Western population were just as ardently opposed to tariffs as the South, and for much the same reason.  Compromise offers from both sides in the lead-up to the Civil War completely and universally ignored tariffs as an issue, and the resumption of high tariffs did not occur until after (a) the entire Southern wing seceded, leaving only a rump Congress, and (b) the war resulted in a drastic increase in federal expenses, necessitating new sources of revenue.  While tariffs were a major issue even in 1832, people weren't willing to die over them even in the peak of the Nullification Crisis. 

It is also telling that when one examines the issue far closer, not at the state level, but at the level of counties, that slavery becomes even more important of an issue.  The Wheeling Convention was the most successful, but by no means the only counter-secession movement, and like the events that led to the creation of West Virginia, these movements are almost always geographically and economically tied to those regions of the South where slavery was at best weakly entrenched, such as in Appalachia; conversely, those who supported secession in the North were disproportionately from those regions where slavery held strong sway, such as Little Dixie in Missouri (though Missouri has certain particular circumstances during the war due to the ham-handed Unionist response to the Governor calling for secession).  Indeed, it's also just as worthwhile to point out that there was actually a solid economic and cultural reason for poor white freedmen to support slavery, in a two-fold manner.  First, the principle of the American Dream was that every man could make their fortune, and to these people, while they had no slaves at the moment, they could always bear the hope of making it big and buying a slave in the future as a sign of that wealth.  Second, black slaves created an underclass that would be inferior to them, and thus implicitly improved their relative condition simply by existing.  Ultimately, while I do not deny that there were those for whom it was a primary issue, "states' rights" was largely abused as a shield for the peculiar institution, and as mainiac has already pointed out, the South was just as willing to abrogate these rights whenever it benefited them and the defense of slavery. 

And yes, there is a distinct trend to white-wash this.  Yes, states' rights were an issue, but it was almost always and exclusively the right to have slaves.  For fun, check out the state declarations of independence during this.  Mississippi is particularly telling, starting with a renunciation of the Ordinance of 1787 (most noteworthy for its renunciation of slavery north of the Ohio River) and the Missouri Compromise, goes to the Federal denial of protection to slavery on the high seas (the slave trade), refusal to allow new slave states in the Union, the effective nullification of the Fugitive Slave Law, "advocation of negro equality", fears of emancipation...it's basically a huge white-supremacy pact.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 10:57:09 am by Culise »
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mainiac

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6199 on: March 21, 2014, 01:17:13 pm »

While this is probably mostly true for states like South Carolina, Alabama and Georgia, you have to remember that there were a lot more states that joined the Confederacy which weren't so sanguine about the issue of slavery, North Carolina being a prime example. The governor of NC, John Ellis, and a majority of the state legislature, did NOT favor secession and attempted to broker a peace conference to end the standoff over Fort Sumter. However, when Lincoln ordered North Carolina to provide several thousand troops to enforce martial law on South Carolina, Gov. Ellis refused and the state began deliberating secession.

I would counter that all the stuff they opposed when the US was doing they were completely okay with the CSA doing.  IMHO that tells me that they didn't actually care about the methods at all, they cared solely about the motives.

It never ceases to amaze me how you could take almost contemporary account of the South's grievance against the rest of the country, replace slavery and abolition with any other popular argument, and still have a perfect summation of politics in the American South right up through the present day.

Well the geography changes a little, Indiana would be part of the modern day south while Maryland would not.  But yeah, that's american politics in a nutshell.

It is also telling that when one examines the issue far closer, not at the state level, but at the level of counties, that slavery becomes even more important of an issue.

I'd add that one should read the state declarations of independence for further evidence.  Those that state a reason for the war are pretty clear what it's about.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 01:19:04 pm by mainiac »
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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GreatJustice

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6200 on: March 21, 2014, 02:47:05 pm »

It's worth noting that while the Southern states were mostly seceding for the purpose of preserving slavery (some of the later ones, like Virginia, had more of a focus on opposition to Federal overreach, but slavery was still a factor), the Northern states weren't stopping the South from seceding out of a desire to protect the slaves, but out of a desire to force the Southern states to remain in the Union. There are many ways that slavery could have ended without the need for a Civil War, after all. Meanwhile, many Confederate soldiers and leaders fought less out of a desire to preserve slavery and more to protect their states from what they viewed as invasion by the North, since Union troops presumably wouldn't stop to poll the residents of a town about their opinions on secession and slavery before looting and pillaging. All in all, neither side was especially justified, the South because they wanted to uphold slavery (and they did a lot of really morally questionable things besides while conducting the war) and the North because they basically forced what could have been a relatively peaceful split into a bloody war. Slavery was doomed as an institution anyway what with the spread of industrialization, and the end of Fugitive Slave Law enforcement in the North would have drastically increased the efficiency of the Underground Railroad.
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RedKing

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6201 on: March 21, 2014, 02:55:51 pm »

It's worth noting that while the Southern states were mostly seceding for the purpose of preserving slavery (some of the later ones, like Virginia, had more of a focus on opposition to Federal overreach, but slavery was still a factor), the Northern states weren't stopping the South from seceding out of a desire to protect the slaves, but out of a desire to force the Southern states to remain in the Union. There are many ways that slavery could have ended without the need for a Civil War, after all. Meanwhile, many Confederate soldiers and leaders fought less out of a desire to preserve slavery and more to protect their states from what they viewed as invasion by the North, since Union troops presumably wouldn't stop to poll the residents of a town about their opinions on secession and slavery before looting and pillaging. All in all, neither side was especially justified, the South because they wanted to uphold slavery (and they did a lot of really morally questionable things besides while conducting the war) and the North because they basically forced what could have been a relatively peaceful split into a bloody war. Slavery was doomed as an institution anyway what with the spread of industrialization, and the end of Fugitive Slave Law enforcement in the North would have drastically increased the efficiency of the Underground Railroad.
I'd just add that the North did a lot of morally and legally questionable things during the war as well (suspending habeas corpus, engaging in scorched-earth tactics through Georgia, extrajudicial killings by bushwhackers, etc). Not that that in any way justifies violations by the South.

While this is probably mostly true for states like South Carolina, Alabama and Georgia, you have to remember that there were a lot more states that joined the Confederacy which weren't so sanguine about the issue of slavery, North Carolina being a prime example. The governor of NC, John Ellis, and a majority of the state legislature, did NOT favor secession and attempted to broker a peace conference to end the standoff over Fort Sumter. However, when Lincoln ordered North Carolina to provide several thousand troops to enforce martial law on South Carolina, Gov. Ellis refused and the state began deliberating secession.

I would counter that all the stuff they opposed when the US was doing they were completely okay with the CSA doing.  IMHO that tells me that they didn't actually care about the methods at all, they cared solely about the motives.

And I would heartily disagree. There was considerable internal opposition to Confederate policies as the war went on, at both the grassroots and legislative levels.
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mainiac

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6202 on: March 21, 2014, 03:01:40 pm »

And I would heartily disagree. There was considerable internal opposition to Confederate policies as the war went on, at both the grassroots and legislative levels.

They opposed these measures politically when the South did them in defense of slavery.  They opposed these measures militarily when the north did them.  "Completely okay" was a bit too glib on my part but the point is that they were willing to lay down their lives and die for a nation doing the exact things they claimed to oppose.

The resistance within the south is often ignored though.  If you assume that nearly all slaves wouldn't have supported secession then secession probably didn't have majority support in the nation as a whole.  But nobody counted the opinions of slaves.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 03:03:59 pm by mainiac »
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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RedKing

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6203 on: March 21, 2014, 03:30:37 pm »

And I would heartily disagree. There was considerable internal opposition to Confederate policies as the war went on, at both the grassroots and legislative levels.

They opposed these measures politically when the South did them in defense of slavery.  They opposed these measures militarily when the north did them.  "Completely okay" was a bit too glib on my part but the point is that they were willing to lay down their lives and die for a nation doing the exact things they claimed to oppose.
Not every Confederate was a dyed-in-the-grey-wool zealot, mainiac. Desertion rates were high (in part because many were conscripted) and for the most part many just wanted to be left the hell alone, by Washington *and* by Richmond. My own great-great-great-grandfather and two GGG-uncles deserted multiple times (then one was wounded and captured at Gettysburg and died in a POW camp in Pennsylvania).
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Descan

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6204 on: March 21, 2014, 03:47:02 pm »

I don't see why people say "Industrialism would have ended slavery!"

Have people forgotten the horrible conditions (and wage slavery) of the late 1800s, early 1900s? Can you -seriously- imagine slave owners going "Well, I have all these black slaves, and I have this factory I want to build/man... Better free them and hire some other guys."

It doesn't take much more skill to man a factory as a floor-worker than it does to be a cotton-picker.
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GreatJustice

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6205 on: March 21, 2014, 04:01:24 pm »

I don't see why people say "Industrialism would have ended slavery!"

Have people forgotten the horrible conditions (and wage slavery) of the late 1800s, early 1900s? Can you -seriously- imagine slave owners going "Well, I have all these black slaves, and I have this factory I want to build/man... Better free them and hire some other guys."

It doesn't take much more skill to man a factory as a floor-worker than it does to be a cotton-picker.

Slaves have to be fed, housed, etc, and at the same time are far less motivated (and trained) than other workers. The costs of running a slave factory would be very high compared to just hiring regular workers.
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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RedKing

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6206 on: March 21, 2014, 04:14:37 pm »

I don't see why people say "Industrialism would have ended slavery!"

Have people forgotten the horrible conditions (and wage slavery) of the late 1800s, early 1900s? Can you -seriously- imagine slave owners going "Well, I have all these black slaves, and I have this factory I want to build/man... Better free them and hire some other guys."

It doesn't take much more skill to man a factory as a floor-worker than it does to be a cotton-picker.

Slaves have to be fed, housed, etc, and at the same time are far less motivated (and trained) than other workers. The costs of running a slave factory would be very high compared to just hiring regular workers.

Many turn-of-the-century factories fed and housed their workers too. And then deducted that cost from their pay.
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kaijyuu

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6207 on: March 21, 2014, 04:17:40 pm »

Especially fun was when they only let you spend your money at the company store (especially notable for mining towns where this was enforced by simply not having any other stores).
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Helgoland

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6208 on: March 21, 2014, 04:23:25 pm »

Slaves have to be fed, housed, etc
Same thing goes for regular workers. And their motivation couldn't have been too great, either...
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Vgray

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #6209 on: March 21, 2014, 05:00:23 pm »

I'm curious. How many bay12ers think the US is a democracy?
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