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[GlyphGryph]

Yeah, Toony, I just couldn't understand what happened with you. It felt like you were on top of things and then you just... stopped. It kind of felt like you just gave up and decided to hope instead.

I had pinned the town's hopes on you, and you let me down, Toony. You let me down.

Although really town this game seeemed to be defined by forgetting their suspicions and why they had them - maybe it just went on too long and people got exhausted?

[notquitethere]

I did feel fatigued by the end. I feel if I'd have played better earlier people wouldn't have been so suspicious of me. But I should have stayed on Nerjin more doggedly. I'm prone to second-guessing but I should have dug in more resolutely. Ah well, I live and learn.

[GlyphGryph]

Yeah, I felt like you made the same mistake I've made before. You figured it out... and then left it, expecting everyone else to realize how right you were.

Once you've "figured it out", you need to DIG. You need to put so much pressure on the person that they'll break and their guilt will become obvious to everyone. You can't expect other people to believe you, and trying to convince them to trust you and believe you isn't going to work - you need to use your knowledge to force the scum to out themselves, and constantly point out every mistake they make in their defense.

[ToonyMan]

Around here:

Unless I'm mistaken myself, we have lost.

Hehe

Unless I'm mistaken myself, we have lost.

And that's the truth.

Ehehehe

Is when I felt completely confident in our victory, seriously, what the fuck?  You guys were acting like a scum team that was just about to lose!!

[Leafsnail]

NQT's analysis was good, but it probably needed more standard scumhunting as backup to help eliminate WIFOM possibilities.

It didn't help that Nerjin and Leafsnail tossed the game W3D1

It was through incompetence rather than malice, I assure you.  Clearly we could win if all three of us jumped, but with no signal we didn't really have any way to know we would.  I poked Nerjin specifically to try and confirm that he would vote up, but for some reason he decided to vote down (which did make him look more town but also STOPPED US FROM WINNING THERE WHY DID YOU DO THAT NERJIN).

After that point though the game was seriously confused, kindof like it was undead.

[Toaster]

Well shit.  At least the little tiny voice in my gut that was yelling at me that Leafsnail was leading us around was right.  I commend you, Leaf- you can really lead town around.


NQT:  GG's right.  It doesn't matter if you figure it out- you have to convince everyone else.  You're a good player and you bring a novel approach to the game- be a little more persuasive and you'll be great.


Tiruin:  Damn.  I was convinced you were scum-  d'oh well.


I want to look back at the spreadsheet and see how the vote pattern really shakes out.

[Captain Ford]

Well, I knew that regardless of whether Nerjin was a spy, I was going to learn something very valuable this game. And I did. *sigh* From now on, I'm never ignoring gut reads for analytical ones.

I'm not going to blame anyone else, because I willingly played along, even though I had doubts. Mostly it was lack of time on my part. I should have used my position as absolutely confirmed town to really give it a good shakedown.

I knew that if Nerjin was a spy, LS had to be a spy, because of his shameless promotion of Nerjin for the mission. Zero doubt in my mind about that. By the end of the game, I was almost certain Tiruin was a rebel -- but ignored my gut read for the analytical one. I let myself be persauded away from the belief that NQT and Tiruin were rebels because LS, Toaster and ToonyMan were all vehemently supportive of the same plan -- and once two of them were confirmed town, I decided to trust the abilities of my elders.

Not doing that again. That's a good lesson for both of us, NQT.

By the way, NQT, I am almost positive that ever since I put up my team with you on it, I never accused you of being a spy. It was simply that you had no credibility. You hadn't built up a rapport with us, and your posts made it clear that you hadn't read up on the current discussion. You didn't realize what was expected of you, or what barriers there were to the acceptance of your point of view. You didn't seem knowledgeable, didn't know your audience, and didn't address our concerns or try to work with us.

Basically, NQT, I disregarded your arguments because you didn't seem serious about convincing us.

[Toaster]

- and once two of them were confirmed town, I decided to trust the abilities of my elders.

It's a good lesson to always make your own decisions.

[ToonyMan]

This is the second game in a row (BYOR11 being the former) for me where nothing made sense and a lot of our victory (or in these two cases, DEFEAT) depended on my choice at the very end.  In BYOR11 I was screwed over role-information shenanigans and chose Phantom of the Library incorrectly over Hapah and in this NQT and Tiruin did a scum-lost reaction.

I want to stop playing tragic hero!  (Leafsnail was scum in both too...)

From now on I am always going to assume NQT and Tiruin are town.  I have to.

[Leafsnail]

The weirdest thing is that I tried to convert you in BYOR11.

[ToonyMan]

[Captain Ford]

Having read the original rules and giving it some thought, giving the spies a chance to organize isn't really all that bad.

To add to what Dariush said, I think taking out the ability to lay low would be a mistake. If we wanted to go that route, it would be better to insitute a system where all spies on a mission must either all sabotage or all lay low.

Also, I would love to play this game again with some power roles mixed in.

On requiring votes to be announced:
I don't really remember how we all started announcing our votes ahead of time. I think it started mostly as a way of expressing out opinions about a team. I think expressing our opinions of a team is crucial so that the organizer can try to persuade people to accept his team, otherwise it's really hard to get an all-rebel team through.

If we wanted to step the gameplay up a notch, and allow people to keep their votes hidden from the public eye while still allowing the organizer to negotiate with individuals, we could allow the organizer, and only the organizer to have private conversations with everyone.

On that note, having a good organizer is crucial. It has to be someone who can persuade other people to see his point of view, or at the very least, be someone that people aren't convinced is a spy.

I think the biggest problem is that this game just takes a very, very long time investment to play properly.

[Tiruin]

Although really town this game seeemed to be defined by forgetting their suspicions and why they had them - maybe it just went on too long and people got exhausted?

I was just really tired that most of the prominent (read: convincing, except for LS but then I'm sure he somehow played a factor too) players was basing their scumhunting wholly on Mafia. Yeah, that works, but then it developed into a closed-minded attitude which biased everything else later on despite the fact that the player still has a voice and is unlynchable.

Well shit.  At least the little tiny voice in my gut that was yelling at me that Leafsnail was leading us around was right.  I commend you, Leaf- you can really lead town around.

I was telling you this from the beginning. Really.

Nobody listened. Or, they did but chose to prioritize telling me out first. And the larger portion of the tiny voice outs me as scum.

I did feel fatigued by the end. I feel if I'd have played better earlier people wouldn't have been so suspicious of me. But I should have stayed on Nerjin more doggedly. I'm prone to second-guessing but I should have dug in more resolutely. Ah well, I live and learn.

This holds true for me.

To add to what Dariush said, I think taking out the ability to lay low would be a mistake. If we wanted to go that route, it would be better to insitute a system where all spies on a mission must either all sabotage or all lay low.

Also, I would love to play this game again with some power roles mixed in.

I think we should institute an either/or here. Unlike the RL game, body language cannot be seen as a determining factor.

Either no spy talk pre-game. Or no choice in acting during missions.

[Captain Ford]

Either no spy talk pre-game. Or no choice in acting during missions.

I think my all-or-nothing idea was a better suggestion than removing the choice entirely. Removing the choice of laying low is a HUGE advantage to the town.

[Toaster]

Looking back, I honestly think the setup was reasonably balanced.  The 4-of-10 setup was a bit harsh, but I think 3-of-9 worked fine.