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Author Topic: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!  (Read 1863973 times)

GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7590 on: October 10, 2013, 11:23:35 am »

Yep,
We were talking about how you said that you're not supposed to shoot people from close enough to have it taken from your hands.

That's what I assumed girlinhat took exception to. In equilibrium, (like a lot of hollywood), the guys with rifles walked right up to the protagonist, where he could grab their weapons. Ideally you'd want those 3m between you to prevent just that.


I took exception to the statistics that were uncited- the original source could have done all manner of torture to the numbers, (for example, do 'gunfights' include 'suicides'? What they could have said was 'gun deaths', and it would take a keen audience to pick up on it.), and without the source we'll never know.
In particular, the statistic about the % of 'gunfights' below 2 meters caught my attention- when talking about crap like in equilibrium where the riflemen knew the protagonist was likely armed and deadly, they wouldn't (shouldn't) have walked right up to him. This unlike a cop at a traffic stop, (who would be included in the 'gunfights below 2m' statistic), where he has to walk right up to the window and say 'howdy' before the guy shoots him.

I hate statistics.
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guitarxe

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7591 on: October 10, 2013, 12:43:11 pm »

How does fire spread? Does it spread only to adjacent tiles, including diagonally?

If I put a log right up to a house and put it on fire, will the house also catch fire?

If a house burns down, are the items inside of it destroyed?
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Grendus

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7592 on: October 10, 2013, 12:46:17 pm »

Yep,
We were talking about how you said that you're not supposed to shoot people from close enough to have it taken from your hands.

That's what I assumed girlinhat took exception to. In equilibrium, (like a lot of hollywood), the guys with rifles walked right up to the protagonist, where he could grab their weapons. Ideally you'd want those 3m between you to prevent just that.


I took exception to the statistics that were uncited- the original source could have done all manner of torture to the numbers, (for example, do 'gunfights' include 'suicides'? What they could have said was 'gun deaths', and it would take a keen audience to pick up on it.), and without the source we'll never know.
In particular, the statistic about the % of 'gunfights' below 2 meters caught my attention- when talking about crap like in equilibrium where the riflemen knew the protagonist was likely armed and deadly, they wouldn't (shouldn't) have walked right up to him. This unlike a cop at a traffic stop, (who would be included in the 'gunfights below 2m' statistic), where he has to walk right up to the window and say 'howdy' before the guy shoots him.

I hate statistics.

I'm a big fan of statistics. I hate how people use them. Statistics should be like a mathematical proof - define your terms, define your method, show your numbers, relate it back to your terms. They get used like a bad logical fallacy.

How does fire spread? Does it spread only to adjacent tiles, including diagonally?

If I put a log right up to a house and put it on fire, will the house also catch fire?

If a house burns down, are the items inside of it destroyed?

Fire spreads to adjacent tiles. The intensity affects how quickly it spreads - a molotov will light a house on fire faster than lighting the curtains on fire with matches. If you want to light a house on fire, my suggestion would be to smash a window and just ignite the inside with whatever fire starter you have.

If you burn a house down, some of the items will be destroyed. Metal items like nails, scrap metal, and rebar will be left behind. In massive amounts. Note that it takes a loooooong time to burn a house down, and you have to stay nearby or else time won't pass for the house. Be aware.
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Neonivek

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7593 on: October 10, 2013, 12:50:33 pm »

Equilibrium if you listen to them describe Gun Kata is all about finding the most efficient body movements in order to fire upon your enemy accurately while also not making yourself a target.

So for example if someone came up behind you with a gun, what would be the most efficient movement that would maximize your chances of escaping while also dealing the finishing blow upon your enemy?

Now that in it of itself isn't silly it makes a lot of sense. The Description of Gun Kata holds up and could very well be a real thing. In fact many schools of combat teach you similar things.

Where is gets silly is in the visuals where the "most efficient way possible" involves very elaborate movements.
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i2amroy

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7594 on: October 10, 2013, 01:01:14 pm »

Now that in it of itself isn't silly it makes a lot of sense. The Description of Gun Kata holds up and could very well be a real thing. In fact many schools of combat teach you similar things.
The big difference is that in real world gunfights there are so many variables that it's extremely difficult to find anything "statistically likely" enough to be able to plan ahead for it, let alone make a combat style that revolves around shooting where your enemies are most likely to be standing and dodging to where your enemies are least likely to fire.

Of course this also brings to mind the arguments that:
1) Gun kata would be completely worthless against untrained people, because they wouldn't be firing at the traditional spots
2) You could counter it by aiming near them but where you don't think they are going to be. It would slow you down, true, but you only need 1-2 hits and the fight's over. (Hopefully you can get them before they hit you :P)
3) Spray-and-pray would be just as effective against Gun kata wielders as normal people
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azmodean

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7595 on: October 10, 2013, 02:03:17 pm »

The actual depiction as opposed to the description in Equilibrium is totally absurd, I think we all agree on that.

The big difference is that in real world gunfights there are so many variables that it's extremely difficult to find anything "statistically likely" enough to be able to plan ahead for it, let alone make a combat style that revolves around shooting where your enemies are most likely to be standing and dodging to where your enemies are least likely to fire.
This argument is equally valid for melee-ranged combat, that is, not at all.  There are many variables yes, but most of them are extraneous.  Precisely this kind of study of how the human body works and how actual fights play out is the origin of martial arts, it's totally valid to apply it to close combat involving guns.  You build the style to take advantage of the predictable parts, and minimise the risk from the unpredictable parts.
At range there's actually quite a lot you can do, by learning to minimise exposure while manuvering through cover and while firing, supressive fire, tracking reload periods, etc... This is all done, we just don't normally call it martial arts, but it very much is.
Finally systematic training with gun handling itself is definitely a martial art style, such as various varieties of reloading styles, aiming, stances, cadence, etc.
Of course this also brings to mind the arguments that:
1) Gun kata would be completely worthless against untrained people, because they wouldn't be firing at the traditional spots
You can study how people with no training handle gunfights and plan for it, martial arts do this to a great extent as well.  If anything, unskilled opponents tend to be more predictable, since there's no nuance to their actions, and most of them will be innefective.
2) You could counter it by aiming near them but where you don't think they are going to be. It would slow you down, true, but you only need 1-2 hits and the fight's over. (Hopefully you can get them before they hit you :P)
This is done in advanced martial arts, you aim an attack for where they're going to be, which may or may not be where they are now.  Your accuracy at predicting this is obviously a really big deal.  Advanced martial arts builds layers upon layers of feints, concealments, and misdirections in, as well as countermeasures for the above.  The point about single shots being definitive is a good one, the ultimate focus of any gun based martial art is going to be in fast takedown, in stark contrast to many defensive or reactive martial arts.  Defending, other than by taking cover just isn't effective.
3) Spray-and-pray would be just as effective against Gun kata wielders as normal people
Just as effective, as in hardly at all.  It's actually quite difficult to hit a target at anything except point blank range without aiming.  That having been said, there'd definitely be a danger zone between far enough away for spray to have a low chance of hitting and close enough to control your opponents gun.  On the other hand, against unskilled opponents you just shoot them at range, because you're really good with a gun too, and your effective range is massively higher than theirs.

Forget Equilibrium though, if we have gun kata it obviously needs to be based on Grenadier ^_^

Silly gun kata aside, we are planning on having military martial arts incorporate gun handling aspects.  (probably the American and Russian special forces styles, the names escape me).
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guitarxe

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7596 on: October 10, 2013, 02:13:07 pm »

How do I check which part of my body has a bite wound?
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Graknorke

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7597 on: October 10, 2013, 02:27:48 pm »

How do I check which part of my body has a bite wound?
'@'
It should have "Bite - [bodypart]"
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Sharp

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7598 on: October 10, 2013, 02:39:34 pm »

Wow I didn't realise this would be spawning a whole argument :P I will be honest I haven't even watched Equilibrium xD

I do still like the idea of having guns involved now as the martial arts has changed to a stance thing rather then a weapon (which could also be a stance) so you can try and have like John Woo action sequences of shooting lots of people very quickly or try and have it so that by firing a shot you anticipate the recoil to use it to dodge an attack or something silly like that.

The one thing I always like to get through though is that you shouldn't be hung up on realism, the game isn't a simulator it's supposed to be fun. I'm not saying realistic simulation isn't fun (and I do love URW as a survival simulator) but you need focus on fun with balance. Introducing gun-kata or something might be fun but it shouldn't be un-balanced and maybe it might even have negative points or be countered by certain monsters which is essentially the ideal in the game design to try and ensure that one build of focused character isn't used dominantly or at least that it is viable to go alternate builds and be provided with a challenge.

If you get hung up on realism then you get pointless arguments about why something shouldn't be there or react like that etc... etc... gas pumps and vehicles don't explode they just burn up but it's cool if they explode
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Knight of Fools

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7599 on: October 10, 2013, 03:38:51 pm »

Well, technically, heat building up in a small area and generating a large amount of pressure that causes its container to rupture can cause an explosion. So anything that burns in an enclosed container can explode.

In real life, it wouldn't be the gas pump exploding. It would be the cistern of gas beneath it.
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Girlinhat

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7600 on: October 10, 2013, 04:02:06 pm »

The difference between an explosion and a fire, is the pressure.

Gas pumps would 'explode' effectively when the fire worked down into the cistern beneath, and the sudden fuel caused the flame to grow huge and spout fire out the top - that's accurate enough for the game to be workable as an explosion.

Vehicles don't explode so much, though.  Even when shot, Myhtbusters couldn't get one to ignite while firing tracer rounds (aka, the bullets are lightly on fire) into a gas tank.  The fact that hitting a bush causes one to explode, well, that's just the rule of cool :P

Sharp

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7601 on: October 10, 2013, 04:18:23 pm »

Yeah real-life car's generally don't explode, but they can be very flammable and get a nice big fire going fairly quickly, however in games and movies cars explode all the time, even falling down cliffs, sometimes they don't even need to hit anything, just the sheer act of falling causes the car to spontaneously combust and explode.
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Neonivek

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7602 on: October 10, 2013, 04:21:42 pm »

Quote
1) Gun kata would be completely worthless against untrained people, because they wouldn't be firing at the traditional spots

Like... your body?

Against untrained people I'd think it would be the most effective. Stay small, stay out of the line of fire, and don't move into the open.

All I am saying is that a real life Gun Kata would look nothing like what the movie's would look like. But people don't want a realistic one, they want the kung-fu action one.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 04:26:41 pm by Neonivek »
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Girlinhat

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7603 on: October 10, 2013, 04:32:08 pm »

New character.
Hulk just outside evac shelter.
*Respawn*

EDIT: Bite wounds are OP.
We also need this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Craft watertight metal cans from metal scraps and welder, usable to make canned meat/veggies and other permanently-fresh-food.

How tricky would it be to add refrigerators, which prevent all rotting, as put in houses that actually still work, or as mounted on vehicles with a much smaller holding volume.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 05:01:33 pm by Girlinhat »
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Graknorke

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Version 0.8 "Romero" released!
« Reply #7604 on: October 10, 2013, 05:25:37 pm »

What would they be powered from?
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