Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Inithis]

Well, it's not quite the most accurate comparison, but it is a good game. I first played Phantom inside Starcraft 2; I don't know where else it's been.

It's a game of diplomacy and betrayal, and it usually starts like this, with some unsteady alliances, before everyone reveals their hidden agendas and goes for the neck.

[Jbg97]

My god, this is like a very good game of Phantom.

In that case, Phantom sounds like a good game.
What's Phantom?

Hey wait, Xantalos? I'll owe you a favor if you successfully trap GWG in his own little world excluding him from all matter except his avatar.

So what? I'm the Time God, I can (probably) bring him (theoretically) infinite energy. Anyways, you'll probably eat him anyways. You're not defining any kind of favor.

Oh, and Xantalos? If you imprison me, our deal about me not messing with your barriers is OFF. I can mess with space and time, that's not good for your barriers.

You can't get infinite energy by stealing it from the past. Also, space and time doesn't affect the borders of space and time.
Q.E.D.

1. Why not?
2. Um, it kinda does. If nothing else, I can warp space so the barriers aren't in the same place relative to anything else, or steal energy from them when they were being created.
With enough creativity, control over space and time can do darn near anything. And I am rather clever....

Stop messing with the past or you'll create a paradox
Because you took all energy from madness creatures, they would never have existed, so your idea would never have formed, and if idea never formed, then you never destroyed the past madness creatures

Nice theory, but it assumes that time travel works like that.
I prefer to think of it as the many-universes theory. Which has basis in reality. And, as the God of Space and Time (should probably be Time and Space, actually), I think I have more of a say in it, hm? Especially since I made time itself?

1. You can't take energy from the past because it was all used. If you take some then our current universe would drastically change in unknown ways.
2. Sure, you could expand spacetime withing the barriers but you would need energy to do so which would run out in an enclosed space. But no, creativity and control over space and time can't let you do anything. You try to step out of bounds, i will put your physics raping ass back in line. Imagine you are in a room and the room is defined by 4 walls, a ceiling, and a floor. You have complete control over what happens in the room and the volume of the room and whatnot, but the room is still defined by the walls, so you cant change them.
3. If you say the many universes theory is true within this game then that makes Xantalos the most powerful god in existence. He could merge another universe with this one and alter the balance of power. He could merge us with a universe where it is pure madness creatures everywhere or pure dragons or pure liquid. That allows for too much asspulling "Oh, the Riftborn is eating everything. I'll just merge us with a universe that has the anti-riftborn! Problem solved, no conflict. Ponies for all!". Which would be dumb. NO ALTERNATE UNIVERSES IN THIS GAME.

[Inithis]

The "many universes" theory is grounded in modern science, but might be best ignored for game reasons. And while I don't agree with my colleague on every level, his point is somewhat sound, and I think that conservation of energy is a very important gameplay element that will drive the stories's conflict--by forcing us into diplomacy, or outright war. GWG and Jbg97 have chosen war; indeed, I see this becoming very central to our plot, if you all are fine with that. But, remember we are all nearly equal in power. A war may be won by the unvocal minority rather than the more story-central majority.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, it's not quite the most accurate comparison, but it is a good game. I first played Phantom inside Starcraft 2; I don't know where else it's been.

It's a game of diplomacy and betrayal, and it usually starts like this, with some unsteady alliances, before everyone reveals their hidden agendas and goes for the neck.

So, like Diplomacy?

1. You can't take energy from the past because it was all used. If you take some then our current universe would drastically change in unknown ways.

It was not used, and many-world theory.

2. Sure, you could expand spacetime withing the barriers but you would need energy to do so which would run out in an enclosed space. But no, creativity and control over space and time can't let you do anything. You try to step out of bounds, i will put your physics raping ass back in line. Imagine you are in a room and the room is defined by 4 walls, a ceiling, and a floor. You have complete control over what happens in the room and the volume of the room and whatnot, but the room is still defined by the walls, so you cant change them.

I highly doubt you have the power to do that, but if that happens I'll figure something out.

3. If you say the many universes theory is true within this game then that makes Xantalos the most powerful god in existence. He could merge another universe with this one and alter the balance of power. He could merge us with a universe where it is pure madness creatures everywhere or pure dragons or pure liquid. That allows for too much asspulling "Oh, the Riftborn is eating everything. I'll just merge us with a universe that has the anti-riftborn! Problem solved, no conflict. Ponies for all!". Which would be dumb. NO ALTERNATE UNIVERSES IN THIS GAME.

1. That assumes you can actually do that. The definition of "universe" is typically "nothing elsewhere can affect it." Xantalos is only in this universe.
2. You're assuming that a god of barriers can force us to go to another universe, which is preposterous.
3. You're assuming that Xantalos WOULD follow your insane troll logic (logic of an insane troll, not insane logic of a troll).
4. You're assuming that the GM would accept that ITL.
5. You're assuming that what you see as a bad story device stops something from actually being true. Guess what? There's a lot of stuff IRL that makes for a worse "story," but it's still true.

The "many universes" theory is grounded in modern science, but might be best ignored for game reasons. And while I don't agree with my colleague on every level, his point is somewhat sound, and I think that conservation of energy is a very important gameplay element that will drive the stories's conflict--by forcing us into diplomacy, or outright war. GWG and Jbg97 have chosen war; indeed, I see this becoming very central to our plot, if you all are fine with that. But, remember we are all nearly equal in power. A war may be won by the unvocal minority rather than the more story-central majority.

1. I created time; barring GM fiat, what I say about time probably goes.
2. Speaking of war...there are three things which determine power in this game: actions, spheres, and restrictions. You have two people on your impromptu alliance; we have at least three. That gives us more actions and a wider range of spheres to get bonuses from. On a related note, a faction trying to eat the universe will have a harder time making friends than one going against them; therefore, unaffiliated parties (e.g. Xantalos) will be more easily convinced to go with us than you, for entirely pragmatic reasons like not getting omnomnomed. Finally, one of your two is stuck in a Time Prison which I keep reinforcing. I'm not certain of victory, but I certainly have a better chance of it.

[Jbg97]

You know this isn't about being realistic so much as fun. You're trying to give yourself game breaking powers pulled straight from your ass. Your pulling infinite power from nowhere with no consequences is bullshit and i won't stand for it.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm willing to distribute the power, though. And I will. And others will probably distort anything I make into new things.

But yeah, it's reliant on GM approval. All I can do is use logic to explain why it doesn't screw everything up.

[Jbg97]

1. You can't take energy from the past because it was all used. If you take some then our current universe would drastically change in unknown ways.

It was not used, and many-world theory.

1. Yes the power was all used, and we've already proven your " many worlds" theory is a gamebreaking bullshit idea.

2. Sure, you could expand spacetime withing the barriers but you would need energy to do so which would run out in an enclosed space. But no, creativity and control over space and time can't let you do anything. You try to step out of bounds, i will put your physics raping ass back in line. Imagine you are in a room and the room is defined by 4 walls, a ceiling, and a floor. You have complete control over what happens in the room and the volume of the room and whatnot, but the room is still defined by the walls, so you cant change them.

I highly doubt you have the power to do that, but if that happens I'll figure something out.[/quote]
2. Yes, i have that power

3. If you say the many universes theory is true within this game then that makes Xantalos the most powerful god in existence. He could merge another universe with this one and alter the balance of power. He could merge us with a universe where it is pure madness creatures everywhere or pure dragons or pure liquid. That allows for too much asspulling "Oh, the Riftborn is eating everything. I'll just merge us with a universe that has the anti-riftborn! Problem solved, no conflict. Ponies for all!". Which would be dumb. NO ALTERNATE UNIVERSES IN THIS GAME.

1. That assumes you can actually do that. The definition of "universe" is typically "nothing elsewhere can affect it." Xantalos is only in this universe.[/quote]
1.So? Your logic is that you can affect other universes by pulling energy from them, you contradict yourself.

2. You're assuming that a god of barriers can force us to go to another universe, which is preposterous.

No, I said he would be able to combine the universes using YOUR LOGIC.

3. You're assuming that Xantalos WOULD follow your insane troll logic (logic of an insane troll, not insane logic of a troll).

You assume that anyone would follow your insane logic as well.

4. You're assuming that the GM would accept that ITL.

Again, you contradict yourself. You think the GM will accept your own bullshit over mine.

5. You're assuming that what you see as a bad story device stops something from actually being true. Guess what? There's a lot of stuff IRL that makes for a worse "story," but it's still true.

It's true in the real world, but we aren't in the real world. Stop pulling stuff out of your ass.

[jaass]

I'm pretty sure GM will do GWG's idea because it would probably have hilarious consequences.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Jbg97:
1. Is, not was.
2. You're not Xantalos, and neither of you has that power as far as I've seen.
3. I assume this goes to 2? Even if he can manipulate the borders of our universe, that doesn't mean he can touch any other, nor can he somehow force us to enter another. Make our universe merge with some other? Maybe, but I doubt it.
4. My logic is based on one simple point: Our universe follows the many-universe hypothesis of time. If this is not true, I will accept the consequences and admit that I was wrong. However, I have not been proven wrong, so I am not wrong. Yet, at least.
5. Why not? You're assuming that the GM will assume I'll ruin his game by stopping everyone from unmaking everything. If he hadn't made the comment about people unmaking everything to repair their own creations, I wouldn't have done that. Inputting more energy into the system somehow is pretty much needed until we can get some kind of organization, which is improbable with the two "factions" plus neutrals as it is now.
6. Which part, the many-universes stuff or the stuff-not-good-for-a-story stuff? In the former case, I would argue that it is not, in fact, bad for the story, for reasons about to be named; in the latter case, I would argue that everyone constantly tearing everything down to repair everything that was torn down would be a much worse story than one where more stuff to repair and create stuff was being created. And no, it's not an ass pull. It's an unused consequence of an aspect of my control over time that I hadn't thought of until I saw the GM's comment.

But we need some official GM word on how time works, STAT.

jass-the-ninja: Glad you think so. I think.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Okay, I'm not sure if anyone will listen to me, but I propose that we put the debate on my many-worlds-so-can-summon-energy idea works or so until the GM actually comes in and says something about it. I've PM'd him, you guys can, too.

[Inithis]

Well, I say we need a balance; there needs to be a way to get more energy, but we can't use it forever. Kind of like getting oil out of shale deposits; it's a more difficult, but finite crutch until we can work out a permanent solution.

Edit: my humble final submission.

[Jbg97]

Jbg97:
1. Is, not was.

It had to be used u at some point for it to be used up now. LOGIC.

2. You're not Xantalos, and neither of you has that power as far as I've seen.

Your logic says he has that power.

3. I assume this goes to 2? Even if he can manipulate the borders of our universe, that doesn't mean he can touch any other, nor can he somehow force us to enter another. Make our universe merge with some other? Maybe, but I doubt it.

You said you can affect other universes by taking their power, why can Xantalos not affect other universes while you can?

4. My logic is based on one simple point: Our universe follows the many-universe hypothesis of time. If this is not true, I will accept the consequences and admit that I was wrong. However, I have not been proven wrong, so I am not wrong. Yet, at least.

I should say the same.

5. Why not? You're assuming that the GM will assume I'll ruin his game by stopping everyone from unmaking everything. If he hadn't made the comment about people unmaking everything to repair their own creations, I wouldn't have done that. Inputting more energy into the system somehow is pretty much needed until we can get some kind of organization, which is improbable with the two "factions" plus neutrals as it is now.

No, I assume the GM will disallow it because it breaks the point of having kilos in the first place, a limit to what can be created. Also, it gives you unlimited power which is unfair to everyone else.

6. Which part, the many-universes stuff or the stuff-not-good-for-a-story stuff? In the former case, I would argue that it is not, in fact, bad for the story, for reasons about to be named; in the latter case, I would argue that everyone constantly tearing everything down to repair everything that was torn down would be a much worse story than one where more stuff to repair and create stuff was being created. And no, it's not an ass pull. It's an unused consequence of an aspect of my control over time that I hadn't thought of until I saw the GM's comment.

I think you having unlimited power is a much worse story than having gods conflict over the scarce power that exists.

[Inithis]

...If I could interrupt you for a second? Do you think my proposal has merit? There will still be driving conflict, but we don't have to face the vicious cycle of always being at each-other's necks.

Oh, and it's kind of like diplomacy; but one player has the job to destroy EVERYONE. The main point of the game is to find this person; and their method of victory is to turn people against each-other in a fit of paranoia until they're weak enough for them to strike.

That player is the titular Phantom. They have increased resources and abilities; but it's not enough for them to win in an outright war, unless their opponents are weakened first.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, I say we need a balance; there needs to be a way to get more energy, but we can't use it forever. Kind of like getting oil out of shale deposits; it's a more difficult, but finite crutch until we can work out a permanent solution.

Edit: my humble final submission.

Thanks. I'd just like to point out that A. getting energy like that requires rolls, most likely, and B. once we run out we're likely in about the same boat...

Jbg97:
1. Is, not was.

It had to be used u at some point for it to be used up now. LOGIC.

I am taking it from one point in time, not the whole past. That would require me to be taking a four-dimensional chunk of energy rather than a three-dimensional one, which is an interpretation of my action that makes no sense and which I do not hold. LOGIC.

2. You're not Xantalos, and neither of you has that power as far as I've seen.

Your logic says he has that power.

No, yours does.

3. I assume this goes to 2? Even if he can manipulate the borders of our universe, that doesn't mean he can touch any other, nor can he somehow force us to enter another. Make our universe merge with some other? Maybe, but I doubt it.

You said you can affect other universes by taking their power, why can Xantalos not affect other universes while you can?

I'm not affecting OTHER universes, I'm affecting OUR universe. Which branches off into another, unrelated to ours, when I fiddle with it.

4. My logic is based on one simple point: Our universe follows the many-universe hypothesis of time. If this is not true, I will accept the consequences and admit that I was wrong. However, I have not been proven wrong, so I am not wrong. Yet, at least.

I should say the same.

Then please do so, because this is rather vague.

5. Why not? You're assuming that the GM will assume I'll ruin his game by stopping everyone from unmaking everything. If he hadn't made the comment about people unmaking everything to repair their own creations, I wouldn't have done that. Inputting more energy into the system somehow is pretty much needed until we can get some kind of organization, which is improbable with the two "factions" plus neutrals as it is now.

No, I assume the GM will disallow it because it breaks the point of having kilos in the first place, a limit to what can be created. Also, it gives you unlimited power which is unfair to everyone else.

Again, rolls, which means that while there's less scarcity there is still scarcity. Also, I have pretty much no plans to abuse this power (if it works), or to block others from manipulating time so long as it's left intact. Finally, the GM should have probably thought twice before giving one guy control over space and time if a +1 or +2 is that vital.

6. Which part, the many-universes stuff or the stuff-not-good-for-a-story stuff? In the former case, I would argue that it is not, in fact, bad for the story, for reasons about to be named; in the latter case, I would argue that everyone constantly tearing everything down to repair everything that was torn down would be a much worse story than one where more stuff to repair and create stuff was being created. And no, it's not an ass pull. It's an unused consequence of an aspect of my control over time that I hadn't thought of until I saw the GM's comment.

I think you having unlimited power is a much worse story than having gods conflict over the scarce power that exists.

Well, 1. It's not unlimited power, it's less limited power; 2. Nothing whatsoever stops you guys from messing with time (except probably the guy in the time prison); and 3. I still don't intend to abuse infinite power. Just, you know, use it to keep the time prison repaired, pay it to people, stuff like that. Like the government, but without the taxes...that's a crappy analogy.

...If I could interrupt you for a second? Do you think my proposal could be a sound solution? There will still be driving conflict, but we don't have to face the vicious cycle of always being at each-other's necks.

Which one was that again?
Once the Omnicidalists were ejected and had their own, separate universe composed of the time prison to play in or whatever, I was going to suggest we pool all the energy into one planet and take turns making stuff, like the gods did in The Order of the Stick the second time.

[Jbg97]

Jbg97:
1. Is, not was.

It had to be used u at some point for it to be used up now. LOGIC.

I am taking it from one point in time, not the whole past. That would require me to be taking a four-dimensional chunk of energy rather than a three-dimensional one, which is an interpretation of my action that makes no sense and which I do not hold. LOGIC.

THAT MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. Your going to destroy an entire section of the past and have no consequences?!?!? YOU MAKE SO LITTLE SENSE IT HURTS. I THOUGHT I WAS THE GOD OF MADNESS, NOT YOU.

2. You're not Xantalos, and neither of you has that power as far as I've seen.

Your logic says he has that power.

No, yours does.

No, you can affect other universes, so Xantalos can too. Your logic, not mine.

3. I assume this goes to 2? Even if he can manipulate the borders of our universe, that doesn't mean he can touch any other, nor can he somehow force us to enter another. Make our universe merge with some other? Maybe, but I doubt it.

You said you can affect other universes by taking their power, why can Xantalos not affect other universes while you can?

I'm not affecting OTHER universes, I'm affecting OUR universe. Which branches off into another, unrelated to ours, when I fiddle with it.

You affect OUR universe's past, which somehow leaves OUR universe intact but creates ANOTHER universe in which the changes took place? Then that OTHER universe is OUR universe, not the other way around because when you affect OUR past your affect OUR universe, affecting OUR past doesn't affect ANOTHER universe. LOGIC.

4. My logic is based on one simple point: Our universe follows the many-universe hypothesis of time. If this is not true, I will accept the consequences and admit that I was wrong. However, I have not been proven wrong, so I am not wrong. Yet, at least.

I should say the same.

Then please do so, because this is rather vague.[/quote]
You should be the god of irritation.

5. Why not? You're assuming that the GM will assume I'll ruin his game by stopping everyone from unmaking everything. If he hadn't made the comment about people unmaking everything to repair their own creations, I wouldn't have done that. Inputting more energy into the system somehow is pretty much needed until we can get some kind of organization, which is improbable with the two "factions" plus neutrals as it is now.

No, I assume the GM will disallow it because it breaks the point of having kilos in the first place, a limit to what can be created. Also, it gives you unlimited power which is unfair to everyone else.

Again, rolls, which means that while there's less scarcity there is still scarcity. Also, I have pretty much no plans to abuse this power (if it works), or to block others from manipulating time so long as it's left intact. Finally, the GM should have probably thought twice before giving one guy control over space and time if a +1 or +2 is that vital.

How the fuck does anyone else manipulate time when you are the only person with the sphere of time?! Just admit your idea is bullshit and drop it.

6. Which part, the many-universes stuff or the stuff-not-good-for-a-story stuff? In the former case, I would argue that it is not, in fact, bad for the story, for reasons about to be named; in the latter case, I would argue that everyone constantly tearing everything down to repair everything that was torn down would be a much worse story than one where more stuff to repair and create stuff was being created. And no, it's not an ass pull. It's an unused consequence of an aspect of my control over time that I hadn't thought of until I saw the GM's comment.

I think you having unlimited power is a much worse story than having gods conflict over the scarce power that exists.

Well, 1. It's not unlimited power, it's less limited power; 2. Nothing whatsoever stops you guys from messing with time (except probably the guy in the time prison); and 3. I still don't intend to abuse infinite power. Just, you know, use it to keep the time prison repaired, pay it to people, stuff like that. Like the government, but without the taxes...that's a crappy analogy.

Using infinite power to keep me trapped forever is a dick move man. You wont abuse the power? No, you wont abuse the power to fuck over EVERYONE ELSE, just me.

Which one was that again?
Once the Omnicidalists were ejected and had their own, separate universe composed of the time prison to play in or whatever, I was going to suggest we pool all the energy into one planet and take turns making stuff, like the gods did in The Order of the Stick the second time.

So again, you're basically abusing the shit out of an ass pull power to fuck me over, remove me from the game, and give everyone else candy. DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICK