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[Manveru Taurënér]

Was I the only one thinking that if Bilbo had gotten himself fried during that encounter that Boromir would still be alive?

Smaug was *so* close to saving the world.

"It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself." (Gandalf)

[Xantalos]

Was I the only one thinking that if Bilbo had gotten himself fried during that encounter that Boromir would still be alive?

Smaug was *so* close to saving the world.

Smaug wouldn't have saved the world. If he got his claws on The Ring, there are really only three outcomes:

-He doesn't realize what it really is: This is very bad, as it means Sauron will soon have a mature dragon with unfathomable wealth at his command. "Fortunately", this is unlikely, as Smaug is in the kind of power bracket where at least identifying a Ring of Power is doable (he may have already done so with one of the Dwarf Rings).

-He realizes what it is and shuns it: This is the best outcome, as it means The Ring will sit forgotten in Smaug's horde for a long time to come, assuming he is able to defend against it's influence (he is so greedy as to make this nigh-impossible) and doesn't die (also unlikely, he's pretty much fated to die).

-He realizes what it is and unlocks its true power: What the fuck have you done, Smaug is now a living god. The world trembles at his power, and even what miniscule redeeming qualities Sauron had are not present in Smaug. The world bows before its new master, and in time darkness consumes all.


Anyway, as for re:Tolkien and Magic, a large amount of "magic" is also synonymous with "fate". Bard made his impossible shot because it was fated to occur, and never lost the arrow before then because it had not served its true purpose.

Now I want to imagine just what the hell would have happened had Ancalagon gotten the Ring.

[Manveru Taurënér]

Now I want to imagine just what the hell would have happened had Ancalagon gotten the Ring.

I have trouble seeing any way that he could have used it, what with his enormous size. I mean, a dragon so large he blots out the sun and destroys a MOUNTAIN RANGE as he crashes dead to the earth, how would he possibly pick up and manipulate the ring at all?

One might also consider how much of a boon the ring would've been to him anyway, were he able to use it. Ancalagon's power originated from Melkor, a power far greater than Sauron.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

As both Hobbits and the Avatar of Sauron can use the Ring despite obvious size differences, I was under the impression that it changes to fit its owner.

[Xantalos]

Although at that size the Ring would probably be bigger than Laketown.
And just for posterity, by the time Sauron made the Ring Morgoth was actually weaker than him because of corrupting Arda.

[Manveru Taurënér]

As both Hobbits and the Avatar of Sauron can use the Ring despite obvious size differences, I was under the impression that it changes to fit its owner.

Forgot about that. Still, feels like there'd be some limits to it. Like Xantalos said, a Laketown sized ring would be a bit silly. Also wouldn't stay put on a claw as easily as a finger most likely.

Although at that size the Ring would probably be bigger than Laketown.
And just for posterity, by the time Sauron made the Ring Morgoth was actually weaker than him because of corrupting Arda.

Sadly haven't gotten around to reading "Morgoth's Ring", so I'm unaware if any direct comparison is made there, but from my impression Morgoth at the end of his reign was still a lot more powerful than Sauron? I mean, Ancalagon was one of the last creations of Morgoth before he was defeated and cast into the void, and the closest Sauron seems to have made are the fell beasts of the Nazgűl, which it's uncertain how much of was rather a remnant of the beasts of Melkor than Sauron's own doing.

[Xantalos]

Dunno, that's what I remember - Morgoth was diminished from all those times he got wounded by the Silmarils, Feanor or Fingol or whoever, etc. plus he effectively made the world itself his Ring, which diminished him.

[Manveru Taurënér]

Dunno, that's what I remember - Morgoth was diminished from all those times he got wounded by the Silmarils, Feanor or Fingol or whoever, etc. plus he effectively made the world itself his Ring, which diminished him.

Yeah, of course he was vastly more powerful before he started diluting his power into all his various evil creations as well as setbacks, but still he must have been far above Sauron in power still?

[Xantalos]

By the end of the Second Age no.

[SalmonGod]

The impression I got from The Silmarillion was that Morgoth only lost the ability to change forms, which is what made him mortal.  He was still supreme on Middle Earth.  None but the Valar could challenge him.  Fingolfin and Thorondor (Lord of Eagles in the First Age) were the only non-Valar to ever harm him.  Thorondor gave him a scar on his face, and Fingolfin gave him a permanent limp.  To put those two in perspective, Fingolfin's enemies mistook him for a Valar when he rode to challenge Morgoth, and Thorondor was probably to Manwe (Lord of the Valar) as Glaurung was to Morgoth.  I believe Fingolfin is directly stated to be the greatest warrior in the history of the elven race, and in a prolonged duel, couldn't find a way to inflict anything more than a lingering annoyance.

[Xantalos]

Man I want movies of those ages so bad but I don't because they'd suck but the story thing's so awesome

[SalmonGod]

Look at it this way.  Morgoth succeeded in conquering Middle Earth at a time when it was populated by many greater beings than when Sauron attempted and failed.

[Xantalos]

And then it turns out he did it purely because Eru Ilvatar wanted his world's history to be interesting.
To be fair, it was, but Eru's still kind of a dick for that.

[WillowLuman]

The impression I got from The Silmarillion was that Morgoth only lost the ability to change forms, which is what made him mortal.  He was still supreme on Middle Earth.  None but the Valar could challenge him.  Fingolfin and Thorondor (Lord of Eagles in the First Age) were the only non-Valar to ever harm him.  Thorondor gave him a scar on his face, and Fingolfin gave him a permanent limp.  To put those two in perspective, Fingolfin's enemies mistook him for a Valar when he rode to challenge Morgoth, and Thorondor was probably to Manwe (Lord of the Valar) as Glaurung was to Morgoth.  I believe Fingolfin is directly stated to be the greatest warrior in the history of the elven race, and in a prolonged duel, couldn't find a way to inflict anything more than a lingering annoyance.

Actually, Fingolfin gave him 7 serious wounds, but failed to kill him. The wounds never healed, though.

[SalmonGod]

I think it runs a bit deeper than that.  Morgoth's ambition and rivalry against the other Valar was sort of what set the world in motion.  Without it, Arda would have been lacking basic things like weather.  Life itself would have never functioned.

The whole duality thing is deeply embedded throughout his work at every level, from the interaction of the elements at the founding of the world to the personality of its characters.  Conflict is a basic component of meaningful existence, and ambition is its seed.  Good and evil are two sides of the same coin, equally responsible for every conflict throughout Arda's history.  Good by being too possessive of its own creations, and evil by envy for the creations of others.  I think Morgoth's success was due to having some meta knowledge about this nature of things that he was always able to twist to his advantage.

Actually, Fingolfin gave him 7 serious wounds, but failed to kill him. The wounds never healed, though.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't say anything about those 7 wounds being serious or never healing.  Only that Morgoth pinned Fingolfin with his foot after he tripped and fell, and Fingolfin delivered one last blow to that foot before he was struck the killing blow.  It was that last wound that caused the limp.