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[Nerjin]

Day light arrived with every single townsfolk arriving unharmed to the center of town. “Everyone’s here again?” asked one of the prominent figures.

“I reckon so…” yawned Lynx_ as he settled into a chair near the old general store. Deciding that it was unwise to leave him unsupervised every townsfolk decided it was best to hold today’s trials there.

Near noon however someone noticed Lynx_ was no longer breathing! Poisoned by the looks of it… this explained his sudden bout of over-extended naps all too well. A quick check of his person revealed he was merely a Regular Townsfolk!

The town of Jackelope’s population, already far below average, has become as lean as a thirsty cactus as their chances for survival grows dimmer with each passing hour. Their only hope is to root out the bastard responsible for this misfortune. Fleeing will no longer help as there is no chance they would leave witnesses alive.

Lynx_ was night killed! He was a Regular Townsfolk

Day 4 will end 1/31/2013 at 5PM. There are 91 hours left!


The Old Parchment Reads:

Onyxjew944:

Captain Ford:

Tiruin:

Ironyowl:

Not Voting: Onyxjew944,   Captain Ford,   Tiruin,   IronyOwl,

[superBlast]

Here's my "Bah" post. Just wanted to send my reply to Irony.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Big WoT

Ok.... So basically I either did the opposite or just did it the wrong way of how to achieve my goal. Which is helping the town find scum.

Great.... man I feel more newbie then ever in any game I've ever played lol. Well being brand new to the game and then coming in the middle of a game doesn't really help much.

Wanting to just sort of kill people at random so there's less of them is what mafia wants, not town.

Why do you want people weeded out?

My line of thought was: Less people = less people to be suspicious of = more likely to be suspicious of correct person = find scum.

There's always a chance for lynx_ to get lynched. Votes aren't set in stone, or at least they shouldn't be; they're based on the opinions and reasoning of the one who cast them,

meaning they should be able to change if you're sufficiently convincing. There's no reason to give up just because one person has more than 50% of the current votes, and there's especially

no reason to avoid letting the day run longer in the process.

Also as a bonus, not giving up tends to be far more productive than giving up even if it happens anyway.

With an hour left, most of the suspicion from people on me, the fact that people don't tend to wait on forums waiting for posts, and it felt like no one was going to vote Lynx.

I guess I got pressured to give up... which is a mistake. I remember what you said about being defeatist and stuff after scientist got lynched.

Quote from: superBlast on Today at 05:13:26 pm
No why the hell would the last bandit get himself killed but taking away his last chance of someone going after Mr. inactive.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. I'm guessing there's at least one, maybe two typos helping with that.

Yeah that... I pretty much went that I'm taking away my chance to get someone else lynched and opposing the extension while being on the chopping block myself should prove I'm not the last

bandit. Pretty much a last ditch attempt to prove myself townie.

1. Lurking
2. Lurking
3. What Tiruin said, though Ford makes good points, but it's also confusing. Huh?
4. No clue, predecessor said so a little?
5. Don't suspect him.

Top two suspects are lurkers, third suspect is parroting someone else (by which I mean referencing them; you're not even restating what it is about him that you find suspicious, exactly)

but even then saying they make good arguments but you're confused, fourth is "Uncertain" and fifth is not suspicious for reasons you don't mention.

So, where in this are we going to get our golden insights that will help us lynch scum tomorrow? What about this is worth dying over to prove it's genuine?

And this is where I suck to explain my reasons... Because I have no idea how to explain my list... I learn to figure out reasons I think I do.... I'm too much of a gut feeling kinda guy.


In any case, I hope I won't screw up so bad next time. Good luck everyone.

[Nerjin]

You need to spoiler all of that except the very top line explaining it's a bah post. Also, you can probably ask Bookthras in Dead-chat about most of these points. Sorry I didn't mention that when you sent me the original post.

[Nerjin]

With the noon sun beginning its slow descent towards the horizon each townsfolk sat absorbed in their own thoughts.

Day 4 will end 1/31/2013 at 5PM. There are 72 hours left!


The Old Parchment Reads:

Onyxjew944:

Captain Ford:

Tiruin:

Ironyowl:

Not Voting: Onyxjew944,   Captain Ford,   Tiruin,   IronyOwl,

[Captain Ford]

Alright, it's time to push some buttons and see what happens.

Onyxjew: Your scumhunting has been lackluster and lazy. You've only voted twice. The first one was an RVS vote that you never bothered to change. The second time you voted a lurker and got away with tossing out questions at the rest of us that you didn't even bother to follow up. Heck, I didn't even answer yours (I completely missed it), and you never called me out for it.

Can you offer up an explanation?


IronyOwl: You were very certain burn_heal was the last bandit. Bizarrely certain. But I'm voting you largely because I feel there was something odd about the way you were talking to burn_heal.

In particular, this one line is bothering me quite a lot:

The vote on you is a lynchvote. I may still change my mind, but more likely than not I'll see you dead at day's end.

It bothers me because you made it sound like you're the one running the show. There's no sense that you need the help of the community to get a lynch, and it comes off as sounding like you're manipulating the town rather than working with them.


Tiruin: Did you protect me during Night 2? If not, who did you protect?

[Onyxjew944]

Good, day has returned. I'll just explain my lurking yesterday before I get into theatrics.

Ski trip. Kicked ass.


If you notice, Ford, no one, let me repeat, no one answered my questions. Ever. After Day One, not a single question of mine has gotten answered. Not. One.

I think that explains why I don't do much but defend, because nothing else is payed any attention. Why don't I ask why no one answers? Because no one answers. Do I expect to get an answer from anyone as to why I'm not getting answers from anyone? No. No I don't.

I find that both hilarious and depressing.


I've got some reading to catch up on, I'll be back in an hour or so with a vote and an explanation. Plus at least one other question.

[Captain Ford]

@Onyxjew: That's why you should use your vote to scumhunt: It forces people to pay attention to you.

I'll reread your posts tomorrow with that in mind, though. No more time tonight. And I need to hear back from the ICs.

[Onyxjew944]

I just realized, we are at MYLO aren't we?

[Tiruin]

I just realized, we are at MYLO aren't we?

And just in time for my post to arrive! 

{Timezones got me before super posted}


{MYLO EVERYONE!

The time of the day where the consensus would lead to either a no-lynch, or lynch the right person -> scum for the benefit of the town. If it is a mislynch and there is no doctor to save a player, scum wins. If it is a mislynch and there is a doctor who protects successfully, town has a chance as the proceeding day turns into LYLO - lynch, or lose.

For the scum, remain vigilant. either aim for going after a 'mislynch' - meaning lynch on someone other than you, or head for a no lynch if you're playing it safe. No lynching here means nobody is up for the noose and the proceeding night's results would help clear the matters.

In a game with hammers [game mode], votes are given carefully - the day ends when enough votes land on a person. Fortunately, BMs have no hammers, but a preset timer. This is the time for astute decision making, emphasized by how close the winconditions are to the players.

Usually, it is at this time OR at LYLO that power roles like Cops or Doctors claim as whatever they've found is crucial to their faction's victory. The latter should only claim, in my opinion, when enough evidence has presented itself that he feels safe to claim. I cannot specify how, as many variables [such as doubt on whether scum NK'd, withheld their NK, or he got roleblocked] present itself.}


Ford:

Tiruin:
First of all, Unvote. I believe I have finally figured out where you're coming from.

Wait, what? Why the unvote when you had something to follow?

I never really had a case on you. I was confused about what you were doing, so I decided to push and see what happened. I'm now satisfied with what I've found.

Oh. So your vote was only to push for information? That is...really interesting. Had you any read from beforehand? At all?

Because this is what I gained:
> You believe that there is a doctor.
> Derived from other's statements, you see yourself as most likely to be town.
> You expected to be NK'd because of your last-moment lynch on a bandit.

IF, as the first sentence says, I expected to die last night, then it logically follows that I was saved by a doctor's protect.

Yes, there are other explanations. But it's the simplest one possible. It doesn't require anyone to take any risks or make any bad choices. It doesn't require the 20% chance of fraxert being scum, or the remote possibility of a bandit completely missing the 24 hour window to post their action, or for a bandit to take a gamble with a very low chance to pay off.

Now, if that isn't good enough, explain to me what is wrong with that reasoning.

There is nothing wrong there. I see you being valiant in your defense, something which I approve of. You know how to construct a defense, even if I believe your case is fallible otherwise. But, what I saw wrong was that you kept on pushing something that can't be generally proven until either someone claims, or what happened the preceding night happens again. Meaning, the absence of a NK.

Scum could or couldn't have NK'd. That was near impossible to prove at that time. Where I'm seeing it, that wasn't the simplest explanation. That leaves questions like: Why would the doctor protect you and not anyone else? Because you seem to have bussed a scumbuddy? Or...because you seem to have seen him in trouble and then voted him off? Or maybe they didn't NK and...err...

See where the questioning goes?

{You did well on your explanation though, but let me point out that in Mafia - all viewpoints must be considered before you post something that isn't conclusive to everyone else.}

But then...

Tiruin: Did you protect me during Night 2? If not, who did you protect?

Explain your reasoning on this one. This intrigues me.



Onyx

Good, day has returned. I'll just explain my lurking yesterday before I get into theatrics.
[...]


If you notice, Ford, no one, let me repeat, no one answered my questions. Ever. After Day One, not a single question of mine has gotten answered. Not. One.

I think that explains why I don't do much but defend, because nothing else is payed any attention. Why don't I ask why no one answers? Because no one answers. Do I expect to get an answer from anyone as to why I'm not getting answers from anyone? No. No I don't.

I find that both hilarious and depressing.

@ Second statement: What questions :/

You gave declarative arguments and not interrogative ones. Reading back, you did ask a question...to Fraxert. I see no other questions in your other posts-

Oh wait, it seems I've missed some.

Tiruin Out of curiosity, where is the line between acceptably defensive and scummily defensive actually drawn? I've seen some queer situations built out of that maddeningly blurred line.

That line is pretty hard to define. When someone speaks about scummy, it pertains to what they - in their opinion - see as an error in logic or a feeling upon reading the paragraphs in that post. It mostly depends on the wording of said post, as well as how it follows what they've said earlier in relation to the accusation against them.

Now back to the topic. You admit you're lurking, hmm? What about priority in posting here? If someone doesn't answer your queries, what do you do in that case? You wait on them, or you begin asking others questions instead? Which seems better?

{Players can miss some posts when they're engaged in reading other people, especially when they're on a case against the person. It is best to just remind them once again by either stating:
[Player Name]: why are you ignoring my questions.

Or something along those lines. People miss things, and it is up to you whether to be aggressive or diplomatic in reminding them. You can't just do...nothing while waiting for answers.}

Lastly, what did you mean by:

Good, day has returned.

[IronyOwl]

Oops, lurking again. Sorry, been busy.


Anyway, as it is now MYLO, or Mislynch and Lose, we should nolynch today. The reasoning for this is fairly simple: if we lynch a townie, there'll be two townies and one scum. Unless the doctor successfully defends again, and remember there's a 50/50 chance of targeting the doctor directly, D4 will dawn with 1 townie and 1 scum, meaning a scum victory.

On the other hand, if we nolynch, scum will knock off one more player, leaving us at LYLO- but since there'll be one fewer targets to choose from, our odds of successfully lynching scum should go up a bit. There are exceptions, of course, like when there's ironclad confirmed townies, in which case the scumkill is going to be fairly obvious unless they're going for WIFOM.

Naturally, this doesn't mean we shouldn't scumhunt; just that we should save the actual killing part for tomorrow.



Ford:

IronyOwl: You were very certain burn_heal was the last bandit. Bizarrely certain. But I'm voting you largely because I feel there was something odd about the way you were talking to burn_heal.

In particular, this one line is bothering me quite a lot:

The vote on you is a lynchvote. I may still change my mind, but more likely than not I'll see you dead at day's end.

It bothers me because you made it sound like you're the one running the show. There's no sense that you need the help of the community to get a lynch, and it comes off as sounding like you're manipulating the town rather than working with them.

Well, there's a few reasons for that.

One, I did want him pressured. Just because I wanted him dead doesn't mean I didn't also want information out of him.

Two, I wanted him pressured. I didn't need or think it'd be particularly productive to claim support I wasn't sure was there, or ignore him while I went and tried to drum it up. I meant pretty much literally what I said- I, personally, was gunning for his blood.

Three, he seemed to be digging himself a rather nice hole. Other people apparently didn't see it quite as much, but it really looked like he was scumming it up enough to make lynching him entirely viable.


What's this about "bizarrely certain," though?


Onyx:

If you notice, Ford, no one, let me repeat, no one answered my questions. Ever. After Day One, not a single question of mine has gotten answered. Not. One.

I think that explains why I don't do much but defend, because nothing else is payed any attention. Why don't I ask why no one answers? Because no one answers. Do I expect to get an answer from anyone as to why I'm not getting answers from anyone? No. No I don't.

I find that both hilarious and depressing.

And why didn't you do anything about that? Including, at worst case, asking an IC what you were doing wrong?

Also, you find it hilarious that everyone's ignoring you, eh? Best case scenario for someone in your line of work, perhaps?

[Captain Ford]

Tiruin: I'm going to try to keep this short.

First: It is a fact that you are the only one who had difficulty understanding my logic. It implies that there is something different about your point of view.
Let me be clear: It's not that you didn't believe me. It's that you didn't understand me.

All the points you made were valid. But no matter how hard I tried, you couldn't understand why me, or anyone else had independently come to the same conclusions.

But when you started asking about scenarios involving the doctor, I realized I had missed possibilities that you were thinking about. I realized that if you were the doctor, you would have very good reason to be suspicious of me.

1. If you didn't protect me, of course you'd be suspicious of me. You'd know (objectively) that my argument was wrong.
2. Even if you did protect me, you'd worry about whether or not you'd just protected scum. Particularly after I mentioned that scum might have no-actioned to make a doctor claim later on.

You talked a lot about doctor logic, which is logically something that the doctor would be thinking a lot about.

In any case, you didn't answer the question. Are you or are you not the doctor, and why are you being evasive about it?


Onyxjew:

I've got some reading to catch up on, I'll be back in an hour or so with a vote and an explanation. Plus at least one other question.

FTD. That's a fitting last nail for your coffin.


IronyOwl: "Bizarrely certain" was purely in reference to the fact that you saw certain things as being towntells on other players, and as scumtells on burn_heal. In particular, the making and retraction of errors, of which burn_heal made two, and onyxjew made one, and on the former you ignored, and on the latter you saw it as townish.


Unvote. I'm up for a no lynch if there's a true consensus. So far, you two ICs have only said that it's general wisdom, I'd like to hear your own opinions on the matter.

Also, everyone has posted, and no one has claimed doctor yet. At what point should we assume there isn't one?

[Captain Ford]

EBWOP: I unvoted IronyOwl because I am satisfied with his explanation. At some point in writing my post, that part got lost.

[Tiruin]

Tiruin: I'm going to try to keep this short.

First: It is a fact that you are the only one who had difficulty understanding my logic. It implies that there is something different about your point of view.
Let me be clear: It's not that you didn't believe me. It's that you didn't understand me.

All the points you made were valid. But no matter how hard I tried, you couldn't understand why me, or anyone else had independently come to the same conclusions.

But when you started asking about scenarios involving the doctor, I realized I had missed possibilities that you were thinking about. I realized that if you were the doctor, you would have very good reason to be suspicious of me.

1. If you didn't protect me, of course you'd be suspicious of me. You'd know (objectively) that my argument was wrong.
2. Even if you did protect me, you'd worry about whether or not you'd just protected scum. Particularly after I mentioned that scum might have no-actioned to make a doctor claim later on.

You talked a lot about doctor logic, which is logically something that the doctor would be thinking a lot about.

In any case, you didn't answer the question. Are you or are you not the doctor, and why are you being evasive about it?

Let me clarify this with one statement. You are denouncing my point of view.

I am not the doctor, and it seems very obvious that the WIFOM you're spewing there is only a matter between you and me - nobody else can attest that I am the doctor or not.

I did not protect anyone, nor did I protect you. If you're so obstinate to hold on your goals, then you can hang on them.

Yea, it would be logical for the doctor to assume the head lead on the hunt of his claimant, but you're seeing it from a narrow point of view. Captain Ford

Also, everyone has posted, and no one has claimed doctor yet. At what point should we assume there isn't one?

And you keep on pointing to this matter. At what point should you assume there is, or isn't one?

Why do you keep on pressing it? What is so evasive of me being who I am, hmm?

[Nerjin]

As the sun reached its halfway point to dusk the citizens remained aloof as they discussed their thoughts quietly.

Day 4 will end 1/31/2013 at 5PM. There are 45 hours left!


The Old Parchment Reads:

Onyxjew944:

Captain Ford: Tiruin,   

Tiruin:

Ironyowl:

Not Voting: Onyxjew944,   Captain Ford,   IronyOwl,

[Onyxjew944]

Lastly, what did you mean by:

Good, day has returned.

I was glad to see I could post again. I had been away for the duration of the extension and I was asked on two occasions what I was doing/why was I lurking. I had to wait through the night for when I could explain myself.


Tiruin

There seems to be a lot of discussion on the remaining power role(s). Do you think there is a doctor at all?


IronyOwl

Why didn't I ask an IC what I was doing wrong? -snipped sarcasm- ...That's actually a good point. I don't really have a reason why, except for 'I didn't think of it.' I found it funny because I had/have no adequate reason for my apparent invisibility. I was questioned, and analyzed, yet never answered. The questions were lackluster, true, but I was surprised at the potential oversight or disrespect. I still don't know which.

Why were you personally, and very much explicitly, going for burn_heal? What set you off? Why the blood vendetta?


Captain Ford

Yep. FTD. A sad combination of laziness and work load. I have no adequate defense beyond that, and I won't be conjuring one of smoke, mirrors, and theatrics.

Damn, I can't find anything to pick at. The doctor theories have been said by you several times now, and I know how annoying that would get if I asked about it. And there's little else besides a hunt for the doctor... Interesting.

Captain Ford Why are you so interested in who the doctor is? How does this help us find scum?