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[Darvi]

Not everybody is an asshole, though. Some people are dicks.

[Max White]

Everybodies an asshole.

[Solifuge]

-snip-

And thus, the Asshole Postulate was born. Gender Politics was never the same.

So Conclusion: Why Don't the women Like Nice Guys?

Because ANYONE who doesn't have a girl is the Nice guy

Anyone who gets a girl is automatically not a nice guy

As a Nice Guy who has entered into a relationship on Nice Guy cred alone (she entering into the relationship on her "Nice Girl" cred) I can say that it was a shallow, primarily physical, and unfulfilling relationship in the long-term... but a relationship was had.

We met while I was working the night shift at the media section of the local Supermarket. She was nice, shy, smart, and a bit dorky. I had recently left home and struck out on my own, but had been lonely for a while and was glad for a person to talk to. We enjoyed one another's company enough, and on a whim I invited her on a date. Afterward, we spent a lot of time together, but it always felt more like a friendship than anything. I'm quick to compromise when my way doesn't really matter, and tend to do better when other people initiate things. She was much the same, and to make things work, the end result was that I had to shift into the uncomfortable role of being the one initiating contact all the time. We never connected on a substantial level, and after a while, I realized I was putting a lot more into the relationship than I was getting out of it, had a messy breakup that still makes me feel crummy from time to time, and lessons about what we both wanted were learned.

Long story short, I learned that I was looking for someone who was more comfortable, or at least willing to take the lead in proposing things, but also someone who was willing to tag along when I had some inspiration or other. I'm pretty good at cooling flared tempers, and mediating or providing second opinions for impassioned, mercurial people, and am seeking someone who'd benefit from that sort of balance. I don't really identify or act like a traditional Man either, so I tend to preclude people looking for that, and am attracted more to people who view gender roles similarly, and would rather just be what they are. Sadly, a fair number of gals I've been interested have been strictly interested in other women, and many of the folks who are openly interested in me are Men. Makes the whole thing a bit tricky at times.

Being gay would make this a lot easier.

[Ogdibus]

I feel that many of the problems we have with other people in our lives suddenly become a whole lot simpler when we let go of these vague, subjective ideas of "Nice & Mean", "Good & Bad", and just come to the (oddly comforting) conclusion that people are assholes.

Subjectivity makes the question easier to answer, because it accounts for the inconsistencies.  A manipulative man with a sense of entitlement might ask this question because he thinks he is nice, but is still rejected.  A woman that is abused might interpret nice as deceptive, while another woman might interprets nice as servile, but she desires is an equal.

[Lysabild]

Being gay would make this a lot easier.

The grass is always greener on the other side, that is, until you've climbed the fence and finds it's the same.

[SalmonGod]

I saw the thread title and thought "Oh boy.  Another one."

Opened it up and saw Vector.  Shock!

I don't have time to catch up on the thread right now.  I see there's some gender discussion going on.  I'm going to detour from that a bit and get something off my chest.  I've been struggling with aspects of human interaction that are related to this, but outside of a relationship context.

My whole life, I have been extremely tactful, soft-spoken, and attempt to bring harmony wherever I go.  I've never been in a physical fight, even after years of provocation.  My whole life, I've felt like this earns me nothing but hostility from most people.  It's not even that I get taken for granted or anything like that.  People just tend not to like me when I'm completely myself.  I get excluded and kicked around and the butt of everyone's jokes -- a social punching bag.  I've had to train myself to be more aggressive than I want to be when interacting with people: to force turns in conversation, tell a mean joke once in a while, etc.  Or I know how to just fade out and be distant when I don't want to deal with the bullshit.  In other words, I can handle myself and don't deal with a lot of crap anymore, but learning the steps of the dance hasn't helped me with understanding why anyone enjoys it.

My wife is the complete opposite to me.  She's brash, outspoken, aggressive, wields pride like a greek tragedy, and loves to fight.  People flock to her.  She can make friends with total strangers by starting fights with them.  It's a mystery to me.  I can appreciate memetic badassery from a distance, but I do not find it pleasant or fun to personally interact with.  Not that I don't love my wife, but we are definitely a couple that was brought together by life circumstances, not compatibility.  If I were single and looking, I would look for someone soft-spoken.  Low Key.  Tactful.

One thing I will say about it... is friends I make tend to be long-term, while hers tend to come and go.

Anyway.  My current best guess at understanding (after ~15 years of trying) is this.  Establishment of pecking order is #1 priority in all human relationships.  It's not even an unspoken rule.  It's a deeply rooted instinctual imperative.  I know it's pretty broadly understood that there are subtle power games at work in any social interaction.  I think my problem is I refuse to participate.  People want to weigh themselves against me, and my refusal to step on the scale is deeply infuriating in a way that they don't even understand.  I'm not aggressive or submissive.  As long as I refuse to play the game, it seems like most people cannot have normal interactions with me.

And this isn't a universal rule.  I've met other people who are sort of like me in this way, but they're definitely exceptions.

I'm finding myself becoming more and more reclusive.  It's not that I don't like people or suffer anxiety or anything.  Social events just exhaust the fuck out of me, because of having to navigate this crap.  I'm more and more content with being distant.

[DJ]

I skipped a bit of the thread, so sorry if I'm repeating what other people said.

Anyway, I think that nice guys just aren't proactive enough, especially sexually. There is this notion that making advances is disrespectful towards the woman, and it stems from sex being bad in the Western morality (damn you, Puritans!). So nice guys get stuck in a limbo between what they want and what is proper, and it's only natural for women to be repelled by men who wall themselves in with manners.

And by nice guy I don't mean a pushover, or an ass-kisser. It's simply someone who considers needs and feeling of others, and is a bit too well-mannered. A perfect example would be Dr Simon Tam from Firefly. You can see from his relationship with Kaylee how the manners constantly get in the way of romantic progression. The difference between the series and the real life is that no real woman would be patient enough to get through all that beating around the bush.

[Vector]

The truth is, I actually like a very slow initial relationship.  I like beginning with noticing that the other person looks at you for your reaction above anyone else's when they're telling jokes.  I like that in my first relationship, we waited six weeks to hold hands, just slowly getting to know each other.  It wasn't that there was a timeline, it was that that was the time it took, and when we finally did it was so nice.  I still remember all those moments so clearly, because all the little things unfolded, step by step, moment by moment, like one of those slow-motion videos of an owl flying.  You could see everything, and it was very sweet.  So I'm happy, right now, to be slowly charming someone else, and taking little steps, and just seeing what happens.  Savoring little bits of things that come up.  But I really don't want to be with someone who's doing this just as some sort of deference, out of politeness.  I'd like to be with someone who genuinely enjoys the same things that I do, the slow dance and so on.  Such a person doesn't have to be particularly well-mannered.

[Max White]

Aww, Luigi and Daisy romance =3

[Leafsnail]

Hmm I like your theory on this LordBucket, but how exactly does it relate to the Crown Chakra?  I am lost.

It's more that assertive people get a million times more chances. Because, of course, they put themselves out there. They get rejected a lot more too.

Yeah.  If you ask enough women one of them is probably going to say yes eventually.  This is the main secret.

[Skyrunner]

Read thru it all, post to watch.

[King DZA]

I feel that many of the problems we have with other people in our lives suddenly become a whole lot simpler when we let go of these vague, subjective ideas of "Nice & Mean", "Good & Bad", and just come to the (oddly comforting) conclusion that people are assholes.

Subjectivity makes the question easier to answer, because it accounts for the inconsistencies.  A manipulative man with a sense of entitlement might ask this question because he thinks he is nice, but is still rejected.  A woman that is abused might interpret nice as deceptive, while another woman might interprets nice as servile, but she desires is an equal.

I don't know, "They're an asshole." still seems like it's is a much easier (not to mention universal) answer to me. Once you accept that every person you encounter in life is, just like yourself, an undeniable asshole with their own faults and flaws they've yet to work on, there's no need to dwell over what's "nice", what's "mean", who was in the wrong...you simply accept the fact that no one is perfect, and that we all have some quality (or set of qualities) that make us an asshole in some way, then continue on with your existence.

I mean, you watch some animal mercilessly mangling someone, or a person you trust remorselessly stab you in the back, or maybe even some huge, world-shaking tragedy occur and think, "Oh god why did this happen?" And just like that, the answer is right there in front of you, "People are assholes". There's no need for blame, or regret, or even anger. Just quiet acknowledgement of life's nature. And in acknowledging and recognizing it, you yourself will actually become less of an asshole. It's an incredibly calming mindset, especially when combined with the DGAF mantra.

[King DZA]

I feel that many of the problems we have with other people in our lives suddenly become a whole lot simpler when we let go of these vague, subjective ideas of "Nice & Mean", "Good & Bad", and just come to the (oddly comforting) conclusion that people are assholes.

Subjectivity makes the question easier to answer, because it accounts for the inconsistencies.  A manipulative man with a sense of entitlement might ask this question because he thinks he is nice, but is still rejected.  A woman that is abused might interpret nice as deceptive, while another woman might interprets nice as servile, but she desires is an equal.

I don't know, "They're an asshole." still seems like it's a much easier (not to mention universal) answer to me. Once you accept that every person you encounter in life is, just like yourself, an undeniable asshole with their own faults and flaws they've yet to work on, there's no need to dwell over what's "nice", what's "mean", who was in the wrong...you simply accept the fact that no one is perfect, and that we all have some quality (or set of qualities) that make us an asshole in some way, then continue on with your existence.

I mean, you watch some animal mercilessly mangling someone, or a person you trust remorselessly stab you in the back, or maybe even some huge, world-shaking tragedy occur and think, "Oh god why did this happen?" And just like that, the answer is right there in front of you, "People are assholes". There's no need for blame, or regret, or even anger. Just quiet acknowledgement of life's nature. And in acknowledging and recognizing it, you yourself will actually become less of an asshole. It's an incredibly calming mindset, especially when combined with the DGAF mantra.

[Jopax]

Read trough the thing, interesting stuff, some of it is quite insightful.

Bet let's be honest here, DZA wins, such a philosophy never occured to me frankly, atleast not in this manner. So I think I'll just be over here trying to fit it into my little "worldviews" corner if you guys don't mind.

[Taniec]

Females, and by extension, romantic relationships between any two people, are highly overrated. The sooner you younger males on this forum start ignoring gender dynamics and pursue what really interests you, it will make you a lot happier in the long run.

OR

Males, and by extension, romantic relationships between any two people, are highly overrated. The sooner you younger females on this forum start ignoring gender dynamics and pursue what really interests you, it will make you a lot happier in the long run.