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[Tylui]

Unvote

Tylui: Let's see if I understand it right: you build a case on Dariush, keep pushing it for half of D1, then suddenly you drop it and vote Leafsnail without giving any reason at all. That must have been the most shameless bandwagon I have ever seen in my short time playing the game.

You're right! It was a pretty shameless bandwagon, but that's because I believe in it. Notwithstanding the thoughts in my previous posts, and as the votes stand now, UI is going to die. As many others have said, I'd also rather not hang a survivor this early in place of someone I see as scummy.

I'm sorry it took everyone as such a surprise; that was not my intent.

Thoughts that you added right before the post I'm quoting?

Would you mind quoting where you made a case on Leafsnail, before you voted him?

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=119041.msg3826486#msg3826486
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=119041.msg3826496#msg3826496 <-- Here I mention my intent to vote, illicits 0 response.

Neither may not have been particularly big cases, but I am used to games played over a campfire. We shoot first and ask questions later. I realize this is a bad tactic in this environment and I will be sure to build a case from here on.

[Hapah]

The fact that playing town is more fun and fun is why I play Mafia.

But you're not Town, though.

Spoiler: Leafsnail Survivor scenario (click to show/hide)

Let's imagine there's a lylo situation: 3 mafia members, 3 townies, 1 survivor.  The survivor can either try to find scum and risk getting killed in the night while the game ends... or he can just agree to help the mafia hammer someone and win immediately.  Which one is he going to choose?

Now, you may respond by saying "Well, not all games get to lylo - like BYOR 10".  This is true, but if the game wouldn't've gotten to lylo anyway it wouldn't have done any harm to have lynched the survivor.  EG in a scenario with 5 townies, 1 survivor and 3 mafia it does no harm to lynch the survivor before lynching the mafia members, even though the survivor may try to find the scum on the first day, because the survivor would almost certainly work with the scum following a mislynch (actually it's beneficial to lynch the survivor first because it narrows the suspect pool and gets rid of a guy who is incentivised to bandwagon onto any vote).

Add in the fact that the guy claiming survivor has a strong chance of being a mafia member because his buddies (see: Tylui, Shakerag) are desperately defending him and it becomes a very good idea to lynch him.

I can't really disagree with the first part, but I do buy UI's Survivor claim.

Let's imagine there's a lylo situation: 3 mafia members, 3 townies, 1 survivor.  The survivor can either try to find scum and risk getting killed in the night while the game ends... or he can just agree to help the mafia hammer someone and win immediately.  Which one is he going to choose?

He's going to let his revive handle the mafiakill (automatically) and use his kill on one of them (because fuck their hopes), then if there's still one left the next night he'll block them (because fuck their kill).

Not that hard. My role is extremely capable of dicking with kills.

I really don't think that's how it would go down, UI. Even if it isn't "hard', it's very unlikely.

Conclusion: Leafsnail is marginally scummier, but Imiknorris is the safer lynch, as he's scummy enough, guaranteed non-town, and his claim could mask a SK.

I'm good for a UI vote (holding it because hammertime), but I'm skeptical on the SK bit. I buy the Survivor claim, but it's still a good lynch.

Hm, I do like the part where you die... let me come up with an alternative proposal that retains the best part of this offer.

Lynch the guy who definitely isn't town now.  Every town aligned player wins.

Unless scum win.

...what?

[ToonyMan]

If we ignore all this "survivor vs. scum" arguing there is this vast assumption where we assume Urist Imik is telling the truth you know.  And guess what scum like to do when role-claiming.

Claiming survivor doesn't make it any more nor less probable for him to be scum. That doesn't change the fact that LS's entire argument is completely idiotic.

I don't know man.  I didn't expect the thread to burst with all this activity when I came home.  I know scum hate active games.

Wait why isn't UI lynched already.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Because the biggest advocate for my lynch is scummy as hell and has made it clear that he doesn't really care about finding scum?

[Leafsnail]

I found you.

[Teneb]

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=119041.msg3826486#msg3826486
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=119041.msg3826496#msg3826496 <-- Here I mention my intent to vote, illicits 0 response.

The second link means nothing. All you do in that is unvote, ask what happens during a tie and say you would vote Leafsnail.

In the first, you consider him scummy for believing Dariush to be town and being defended by a few others, such as Toaster.


If Leafsnail is so scummy, why don't you keep asking him questions instead of just throwing a vote and shifting your attention to others?

[Dariush]

40 WoTs. Don't you Catholics have some holidays or something?...

Toaster/Tylui:
Tylui said that my question didn't seem like an RVS question. When I pointed out it wasn't intended to be such, he said he didn't say it was either. Basically, he said that something that nobody considers to be X doesn't look like X.

Tylui:

I realize you had a vote in, I meant to question why you aren't more actively trying to find scum.

I'm voting people I consider to be scum. Do you know for a fact that LS isn't scum?

I'm repeating the answer days later exactly because I wasn't lurking. I was gone with Thanksgiving AND my daughter's first birthday, as I said. So I re-read the whole thread since my last post and wrote my post concurrently.

Yes, of course, asspull excuses instead of answering my questions. I don't give the most miniscule of fucks about where you were or what you were doing. You weren't here. I repeat: why did you repeat Mr. Celt's answer? And how does that relate to not-lurking?

Also nice bandwagon.

LS:

Now, you may respond by saying "Well, not all games get to lylo - like BYOR 10".  This is true, but if the game wouldn't've gotten to lylo anyway it wouldn't have done any harm to have lynched the survivor.

This is some high-grade bullshit. Lynching a survivor (especially with a kill) brings LYLO closer by causing the deaths of two non-scum (one survivor and one person NK'd, assuming no blocks and so on), with absolutely no new information gained.

DS:

If Leafsnail is so scummy, why don't you keep asking him questions instead of just throwing a vote and shifting your attention to others?

...The fuck? Did you really just accuse him of not blindly tunnelling?

Everyone voting UI: name one good reason not to follow UI's plan: lynch LS, he kills the town's chosen target, if both are town, we lynch him. Worst case scenario: he manages to kill one town, we lynch confirmed scum UI. Best case scenario: he follows through with the plan, we nab at least one scum D+N1 and confirm that UI is indeed a survivor (because he wouldn't kill his scummate and it's pretty obvious LS and UI can't both be scum).

[webadict]

Vote Count
------------------------
Toaster -
Urist Imiknorris - ToonyMan, Leafsnail, Jack A T, Toaster, Bookthras,
Tiruin -
Hapah -
Dariush -
Tylui - Deathsword,
Leafsnail - Urist Imiknorris, Dariush, Shakerag, Tylui,
Bookthras -
Deathsword -
Shakerag -
MrCelt - Tiruin,
Jack A T -
ToonyMan -
No Lynch -

Not Voting - Hapah, MrCelt,

7 To Hammer. Day Ends Wednesday 9 PM Central.

Day Extended to Wednesday. Also, please make Extension requests off by themselves or something. The fact that they're not another color is probably my worst mistake ever.

[Leafsnail]

This is some high-grade bullshit. Lynching a survivor (especially with a kill) brings LYLO closer by causing the deaths of two non-scum (one survivor and one person NK'd, assuming no blocks and so on), with absolutely no new information gained.

You really don't understand how survivors work.  At lylo, a survivor will vote with scum unless they're playing against their win condition (at best, they will bandwagon vote randomly which almost always means lynching town).  Thus a survivor is pretty much scum for lylo purposes.  Lynching one on the first day is never a bad thing.

Add in the fact that UI is actually mafia (see: Shakerag and Tylui rushing to his aid and both acting like he's a confirmed survivor) and he's a great lynch.  I mean Jesus the idea of lynching claimed survivors is hardly revolutionary, it's the standard meta on mafiascum and I can't believe you haven't worked out it's the correct play yet.

Everyone voting UI: name one good reason not to follow UI's plan: lynch LS, he kills the town's chosen target, if both are town, we lynch him. Worst case scenario: he manages to kill one town, we lynch confirmed scum UI. Best case scenario: he follows through with the plan, we nab at least one scum D+N1 and confirm that UI is indeed a survivor (because he wouldn't kill his scummate and it's pretty obvious LS and UI can't both be scum).

Because the good part of that plan is "We lynch confirmed scum UI".  So let's just take the good part of that plan and ignore the "let the confirmed scum have a shot in the night before we lynch him" part.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Add in the fact that UI is actually mafia (see: Shakerag and Tylui rushing to his aid and both acting like he's a confirmed survivor) and he's a great lynch.  I mean Jesus the idea of lynching claimed survivors is hardly revolutionary, it's the standard meta on mafiascum and I can't believe you haven't worked out it's the correct play yet.

Mafiascum is not here.

Also if only there was some way to confirm that I'm not mafia without lynching me I'd love to see the look on your face.

[Dariush]

confirmed scum UI

Sorry, not seeing it. Possible scum? Definitely. Confirmed? Now you're just asspulling and giving a bullshit answer to a rational question.

[Leafsnail]

Mafiascum is not here.

Also if only there was some way to confirm that I'm not mafia without lynching me I'd love to see the look on your face.

It's not here, but there's no reason why survivors here should function any differently and they have a lot more games of experience (and a better town game).

If there were a way to confirm someone as not mafia it should be used on someone who hasn't claimed survivor.  That way we could have a confirmed townie rather than a confirmed not-quite-scum.

Sorry, not seeing it. Possible scum? Definitely. Confirmed? Now you're just asspulling and giving a bullshit answer to a rational question.

...Your words.  I was repeating what you said because I thought you'd finally realized survivor is basically a subset of scum.  You said he was confirmed scum (or am I to take it me and some other random person being town confirms him as scum?  How?).

[Dariush]

...Your words.  I was repeating what you said because I thought you'd finally realized survivor is basically a subset of scum.  You said he was confirmed scum (or am I to take it me and some other random person being town confirms him as scum?  How?).

...Wow. Just wow. I can't believe you can unintentionally be such a dumbass. I specifically said that UI will be confirmed scum if his kill doesn't correspond with the town's wishes. Literally IN THE NEXT SENTENCE I mention that he will be a confirmed survivor if at least one scum dies until D2. There's NO way you could miss that. You're intentionally twisting my words, scum. Go hang already.

[Leafsnail]

I specifically said that UI will be confirmed scum if his kill doesn't correspond with the town's wishes.

This is not what you said.  You said nothing about whether his kill would have to correspond to town wishes during the confirmed scum scenario.

Worst case scenario: he manages to kill one town, we lynch confirmed scum UI.

The actual worst case scenario is clearly mislynching me and then choosing a kill for UI that's also town, which he gladly performs.  So you were either somehow forgetting about the actual worst case scenario (which would be such a ridiculously stupid thing to do I didn't even consider it a possibility when trying to parse your post) or you are lying.

Furthermore both of your "confirmed" scenarios are wrong.  Scum can bus (weren't you telling me this earlier?) or crosskill (see: serial killers) so him killing a mafia member wouldn't confirm him as survivor.  Also survivors are not a town role so him going against what the town tells him to do wouldn't confirm him as scum.  It's amazing how your clarification suddenly causes your post to make no sense at all.

[Teneb]

DS:

If Leafsnail is so scummy, why don't you keep asking him questions instead of just throwing a vote and shifting your attention to others?

...The fuck? Did you really just accuse him of not blindly tunnelling?

He was blindly tunneling you. Then he drops that, votes Leafsnail and doesn't even throw a single crap question at him to pretend he is trying.