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Author Topic: The United States of Europe  (Read 17195 times)

Starver

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #90 on: November 09, 2012, 09:29:18 pm »

I was trying to post earlier, but got torn away from the computer too often to make for a proper reply at the time.  And there's been an awful lot more said since the point I was going to join in, but... well, let's just say what I was going to say (even though I'm probably largely ninjaed and counter-ninjaed, in turn).

As a UK resident, us British are insular.  Literally, in fact, but also (in general) psychologically/politically.  For this reason we've been reluctant to go in at the deep end with "the big experiment", and what we see from the shallow end (or even from the benching at the side of the pool) doesn't seem to have given us much reason to jump in.  (It's possible that De Gaul did us a big favour even after the war.)

The fact that our own "United" Kingdom always has a few voices about partial breakaways (with or without EU participation by the splintered entity) probably isn't too relevant, but the overall feeling of historic sovereignty (at whatever scale) is surely felt at some level by individual nations.  Ok, so historically borders are different and wibbly-wobbly on mainland Europe, and there's the old joke about people who have been in seven different countries and yet never left <city name> in their life.  But you have a lot of old powers in Europe, with at least a perceived history and heritage and legacy, whether that be the long time-scale that Greece could (conceivably) posit to the relatively modern nation of Germany.  (Both of these, and many of the others, have bumps in their progression and 'more convenient to forget' interim periods, of course, but still.  And England/Britain isn't immune to stuff like the Interregnum/Protectorate.)

The recent (and ongoing) financial situation shows one thing, and that's that the half-knit financial currency system of the Euro causes problems of some nations dragging others.  Either down or along, depending on your POV.  Conceivably, this might lead to a hardening of the Eurozone into a truly centralised system, but it could also supernova, shedding the 'shell' countries while solidifying those that are left into a Neutron Star-like core of now solidified nations...  But somehow I don't see that happening, and if there's any fragmentation it'll be more like a popped balloon, where you find fragments of rubber/latex all over the dance-floor.

As well as financially disparate, the EU is still too linguistically, culturally and 'attitudinally' disparate, I think.  It's hard to tell from the outskirts I live in (and one in which our linguistic aspirations, admittedly, are far too unambitious), but while I think the average Frenchman is happy to drive into France, and the Germans are somewhat more welcome in various neighbouring-countries (and beyond) than they might have been a few decades before, can they meld?

My answer?  The EU can work as a group much as the Benelux works as a group, but not since the unification of Germany (and/or Italy's own nation-state merging) has there been any actual "single-nationing" built up of old-world-orders.

The US is an interesting contrast, but don't forget that the (majority of the) inhabitants of the fledgling and later United States were immigrants, rejecting (or feeling rejected by) their Old World origins feeling more (though not necessarily perfect) amicability with their fellow (and sometimes historically rivalric) colonists than with their original nations.  And once you got beyond the first generation and (real or imagined) felt cast off, rejected or downright unappreciated and put-upon by their original country/colonial power, you've got more far more reason to Federalise an otherwise 'unowned' nation that the EU ever did.


I think there's only one way the EU could unify.  By force.  Perhaps of personality (and suitable opportunity) by a single leader.  It's hard to think of a non-conflict way of this happening.  The archetypes are the likes of Ghengiz Kahn, Qin Shi Huang, to some extent Shaka Zulu, various native South American civilisation leaders (at various points in history), the more successful individuals going by the name Napoleon, ditto with the Caesars and their ilk, most of the guys with "The Great" as a title, maybe Saladin, (some of) the Pharoahs, etc, etc...  Did any of these not create their respective superstates without force of arms?

Of course, the world is different these days.  I'm not sure if global communications and individual senses of entitlement can work for or against the complete merging of the EU (or significant parts of it) into a superstate of its own.  My own musings tend to actually go towards the scenarios envisaged in the world of Snow Crash or Diamond Age (both Neal Stephenson novels of (arguably sequential) futures where states of any size matter less and less).

Indeed, prior to the whole Greece, et al, situation, my personal musings were along the lines of how the EU would break up, after an attempt to better merge...  These rested mainly upon the concept of a local area (a county/'department'/stat/whatever, or an even smaller area, perhaps a city or city-equivalent area of countryside) in which there's disaffection with how the Great Experiment went, local people (perhaps including a "local regiment", of what was once a segment of the Bundeswher[1], Armée de Terre, Esercito Italiano or whatever) demand to break out of the system that appears to be unfair to them starts a process of increased renationalisation (whether initially successful themselves, or not) and "does a Yugoslavia", post Tito.


So... what was the OP question again?  Sorry, I covered a lot of mental ground in-between originally trying to reply and now, so not quite sure (without spawning off another tab to go and check what it actually says), but if it was "Will the EU become the USofE?", then I think I say no.  But if it does, it won't be the whole of what is currently the EU.  And yet if it is, it won't survive that long.  If it does, then I'm a dutchman[2] euroman. ;)


[1] Although I think German federal states don't have their own regional regiments, these days, but YGTI.  Other errors may exist in this post, through unfamiliarity with national situations like this.  You'll probably have to take this for granted and work around such apparent misconceptions in what I write.

[2] I'll just speak English with a "heavy cold" accent, sing-songy rhythm and a word order and sentential structure consisting of much strangeness! 8)
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lordcooper

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #91 on: November 09, 2012, 10:59:18 pm »

Welsh affairs get little enough attention from the centralised UK government.  A single European one would barely notice us.
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Thecard

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #92 on: November 09, 2012, 11:02:46 pm »

Welsh affairs get little enough attention from the centralised UK government.  A single European one would barely notice us.
True.  We don't pay you much attention in America either.  If my only education came from school, I would have no idea Wales existed.  Most people I know don't.
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hermes

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #93 on: November 09, 2012, 11:03:37 pm »

I'd like to suggest another way the EU can unify Europe, by just behaving as if it already has.  Starver, you mention the undercurrent of anti EU feeling in the UK and other nations, and others have said they believe the EU could never form a pan European nation.. all of this I'm generally inclined to agree with.  What I would propose is that the EU doesn't need to become a state to achieve the de facto legal, economic and military power of one.

Essentially the ideology of one Europe has been appropriated by interested parties that stand to gain from a supranational body with extremely little public oversight.  The fact that the media propagates anti EU sentiment is perhaps less a reflection of public opinion and more a reflection of how those parties would have us think.  They only benefit from lack of interest and widespread apathy, which lessens critical analysis of a system that is already physically and almost legally beyond the reach of the common man.

Whilst I have no love for such wet dreams of capitalists, the EU, as a collective of nations, has immense political, economic and military power which, more so than just about any nation other than the US, has the power to be a force for good.  Support!
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lordcooper

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #94 on: November 09, 2012, 11:08:31 pm »

Welsh affairs get little enough attention from the centralised UK government.  A single European one would barely notice us.
True.  We don't pay you much attention in America either.  If my only education came from school, I would have no idea Wales existed.  Most people I know don't.

That's okay, I can only name about ten US states off the top of my head.
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Thecard

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #95 on: November 09, 2012, 11:19:45 pm »

Welsh affairs get little enough attention from the centralised UK government.  A single European one would barely notice us.
True.  We don't pay you much attention in America either.  If my only education came from school, I would have no idea Wales existed.  Most people I know don't.

That's okay, I can only name about ten US states off the top of my head.
That does make me feel better.  But I still feel really bad about the whole "no one knows you exist thing."  It's the same for Scotland too, and Ireland.  You would not believe how many people don't realize the difference between England, Britain, and the whole British Isles. 
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I think the slaughter part is what made them angry.
OOC: Dachshundofdoom: This is how the world ends, not with a bang but with goddamn VUVUZELAS.
Those hookers aren't getting out any time soon, no matter how many fancy gadgets they have :v

Frumple

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #96 on: November 09, 2012, 11:22:14 pm »

Generally the only people that actually care are the people inside that tiny geographical area, and sometimes not even them. Everyone outside of it, the differences tend to just... not matter, really. Distance blurs the lines, I guess.
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Lee72

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #97 on: November 10, 2012, 03:36:50 am »

I'd be quite happy to have a United States of Europe, only I don't like that as a name. We need something more dignified, with a bit of history. Also Brussels is too boring to be the capital city of such a powerful nation, and the 'euro' is a silly name for a currency.

So, my suggestion is to rename it "The British Empire", move the capital to swinging London and call the currency 'Pounds Sterling'. I cannot see why any reasonable person would object to such proposals.

Didn't we do this already?
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10ebbor10

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #98 on: November 10, 2012, 04:17:21 am »

Whilst I have no love for such wet dreams of capitalists, the EU, as a collective of nations, has immense political, economic and military power which, more so than just about any nation other than the US, has the power to be a force for good.  Support!
Feel free to drop this part. The EU can have a terrific influence on the world, should they manage to get everyone on the same line. (Which happens every so often, but not always). There's also some questions to be asked about the US being a force for good, but we're not going there.

That being said, the EU manages to do quite a lot of stuff at the moment, and while I suspect that unification will continue, I'm pretty sure it will not lead to an United States of Europe (not in a close future), for that is not it's goal. We'll probably end up with a Confederation, or at best a united nation with self governing sub sectors. A complete disolvement of the European Union seems extremely unlikely, as it would crash the economies of almost all nations involved. (Even those not yet in the Euro program.)

The European union uniting by force seems extremely unlikely, and would be extremely sad, for it would mean that it would have lost one of it's core principles. (The EU is an economical union, but also serves to prevent any conflict inside europa, which seems to work out for the moment). Another, more likely way would be a unification against a common threat (which is kinda what's happening now, even though the crisis destabilizes the union) of which I'm afraid we'll see more in the close future.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #99 on: November 10, 2012, 06:52:12 am »

And with that conclusion, we can say for all its faults and its glories, the EU is just fine as is. The end.

10ebbor10

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2012, 07:17:42 am »

And with that conclusion, we can say for all its faults and its glories, the EU is mostly fine as is. The end.

We do need to do some minor/major changes, and maybe implement some additionall financial safety systems. (And scrap some others) But that's it really.
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Siquo

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #101 on: November 10, 2012, 07:36:59 am »

Hear, hear.

A projected side-effect I still like to see: less powerful countries means that it'll become easier for some regions to become autonomous, perhaps even become member states. Basque, Catalonia, Vlaanderen, Wallonia, Brittany, Corsica, Padania, Fryslân, hell almost every region has it's separationist movements, some more than others, and the current contrived borders between countries can become more... fluid.
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miauw62

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #102 on: November 10, 2012, 09:59:15 am »

And with that conclusion, we can say for all its faults and its glories, the EU is mostly fine as is. The end.

We do need to do some minor/major changes, and maybe implement some additionall financial safety systems. (And scrap some others) But that's it really.
Agreed.

I don't know exactly how our political system works, but both parts of Belgium are already pretty autonomous, having their own governement.
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misko27

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #103 on: November 10, 2012, 10:45:51 am »

I have to say, everything I say here is influenced by the fate of my homeland. Unity is great, but it is hard. A Inspiring leader is needed.
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Thecard

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #104 on: November 10, 2012, 12:48:02 pm »

And with that conclusion, we can say for all its faults and its glories, the EU is mostly fine as is. The end.

We do need to do some minor/major changes, and maybe implement some additionall financial safety systems. (And scrap some others) But that's it really.
Yeah, I think you've got it.
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I think the slaughter part is what made them angry.
OOC: Dachshundofdoom: This is how the world ends, not with a bang but with goddamn VUVUZELAS.
Those hookers aren't getting out any time soon, no matter how many fancy gadgets they have :v
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