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Author Topic: The United States of Europe  (Read 17166 times)

Hiiri

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #105 on: November 10, 2012, 01:54:03 pm »

I have to say, everything I say here is influenced by the fate of my homeland. Unity is great, but it is hard. A Inspiring leader is needed.

Arnold Schwarzenegger? :P
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Oliolli

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #106 on: November 10, 2012, 02:20:24 pm »

Remember when I said that Europe would remain democratic?

I lied.

Hey, maybe if he became the head of Europe, he could start resolving international crises by himself. Civil war in the middle east? Give the man a LMG and send him over, give him a few weeks, civil war over.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 02:24:06 pm by Oliolli »
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misko27

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #107 on: November 10, 2012, 02:22:13 pm »

I hate when this is relevant.


Every single thing in that article is fact, they just phrased it the usual way.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #108 on: November 10, 2012, 02:54:34 pm »

Quote
Even if he quits both politics and acting, Newsweek wrote, he is plenty busy with his work for the United Nations and other organisations on climate change and numerous other charitable causes.
Got me at climate change. Not exactly sure what a president of the EU does mind you, nor had I known such a thing existed...

miauw62

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #109 on: November 10, 2012, 02:57:12 pm »

[bias=Belgian]He's awesome. That's all you need to know.[/bias]
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they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the raving confessions of a mass murdering cannibal from a recipe to bake a pie.
Knowing Belgium, everyone will vote for themselves out of mistrust for anyone else, and some kind of weird direct democracy coalition will need to be formed from 11 million or so individuals.

Starver

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #110 on: November 10, 2012, 08:05:04 pm »

Welsh affairs get little enough attention from the centralised UK government.  A single European one would barely notice us.
There was a good drama on BBC Radio 4 (either in the weekday slot or the Saturday Drama/Play/whatever, wasn't it?) about the guy who went on hunger-strike and ended up getting S4C ([Channel] 4 Cymru) founded.  A couple of weeks ago, so probably not on the iPlayer any more (unless it's one of the ones they keep perpetually).

Anyway, if nobody has said anything about it, the EU already missed Wales off of one of its representations of Europe, quite famously.  The British Isles featured, but without the "lump" that is your particular P-Celtic 'peninsular' off of England.


Anyway, this Sais knows about Wales, and likes it (in fact, just wrote "Llanfair P.G." in full in another thread on this forum, coincidentally, from memory and probably spelt correctly).  Doesn't mean I can make things good for you under a USE political structure, of course.
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Starver

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #111 on: November 10, 2012, 08:15:15 pm »

I have to say, everything I say here is influenced by the fate of my homeland. Unity is great, but it is hard. A Inspiring leader is needed.

Arnold Schwarzenegger? :P

Boris Johnson.  (Who I still think should be given a chance to become President Johnson of the United States[1], as well. ;) )

[1] Check, Check and... Possible.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #112 on: November 10, 2012, 08:21:13 pm »

Boris Johnson.  (Who I still think should be given a chance to become President Johnson of the United States[1], as well. ;) )

[1] Check, Check and... Possible.
[bias]I for one support out fearless hairy overlord.[/bias]

Xinvoker

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #113 on: November 11, 2012, 06:01:59 am »

I've been a eurofederalist for many years.

I still hope the EU will emerge stronger from this crisis.
The Eurozone will become the federal core, and the EU will be the waiting room/single market.
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martinuzz

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #114 on: November 11, 2012, 09:12:44 am »

While I am not against European unity in se, I abhor the current form of the EU, and the line of thought that forms it.
In itīs current form, it is nothing more than neo-liberal agenda being forced down the throats of national governments, even if those arenīt (neo)- liberal at all.
It is forcing governments to make massive budget cuts, whereas in this time of crisis, we would be much better off with investment.

Brussel makes laws and regulations based on treaties that they call democratic. They seem to forget that a lot of countries had a referendum against the 'European Constitution', a few years back. This European Constitution did not pass popular vote, mainly because people saw that it was nothing more than a fancy document that advantages big companies and multinationals, while neglecting, or even actively making it harder for countries to spend budget on social issues. The Constitution was redirected to the trash bin, simply because the people in too many countries said "NO!". A year later, the European lobbyers had come up with this new treaty. They were smart, and did not call it a Constitution this time, so no referendum was called. However, if you look at what's in the treaty, it's 99% similar to the dejected Constitution, that nobody wants. It passed without anyone objecting, because people weren't made aware of it's importance this time. So now we are pretty screwed with all kinds of discretional power and legislation forced down upon us from Brussels, unaffected by our democratic vote.

There is ofcourse the European parliament, formed from democratically chosen members from the various states. They are meant to safeguard the democratic processes during policy-making, and represent the interests of all European citizens. But they lack the power to actually influence descision making. I guess that's where the history of European wars and division still shines through.
This leaves all power of descision making to a rather small group of not-so-democratically appointed lobbyers, of whom a vast majority have a strict neo-liberal agenda. Even though neo-liberalism is becoming less favoured by a lot of national democracies.  This has had, and will have catastrophic consequences for the ordinary man. Greece's citizens are it's first victim. (Although I must admit, there's a lot that gone wrong internally in Greece, even before that). Next up is the destruction of social security by force of 'budgetary discipline'. I hope this monster falls apart soon, even though it does not directly hurt me (yet), living in relative, yet comfortable safety in the wealthy Netherlands.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 09:19:38 am by martinuzz »
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Helgoland

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #115 on: November 11, 2012, 10:50:41 am »

the dejected Constitution, that nobody wants.
AFAIK it was rejected in only two countries... but yeah, more democratic control definitely is needed. As it stands, the parliament can't even introduce new laws!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 05:11:53 pm by Helgoland »
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scriver

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #116 on: November 11, 2012, 12:42:31 pm »

the dejected Constitution, that nobody wants.
AFAIK it was rejected in only two countries... but yeah, more dmocratic control definitely is needed. As it stands, the parliament can't even introduce new laws!

Most countries didn't hold popular votes about it exactly because they knew it didn't have popular support. In Sweden there was a large movement against it that was simply ignored by the government.
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Helgoland

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #117 on: November 11, 2012, 01:17:36 pm »

Now we could start an argument about direct vs. parliamentary democracy, but that would be derailing...
So let's start; you go first.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

scriver

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #118 on: November 11, 2012, 08:37:24 pm »

Such discussion would only be relevant of we pretend representative democracies can't have popular votes, which we both know is completely untrue.
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Helgoland

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Re: The United States of Europe
« Reply #119 on: November 12, 2012, 10:48:43 am »

I meant a comparison of the extremes: The Rousseau model, in which you have the imperative mandate and direct decisions made in popular votes, and the parliamentary (English) system in which the parlamentarians are only bound in their decision-making by the constitution and their conscience. No direct control allowed there, of course.
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The Bay12 postcard club
Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.
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